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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 879041 times)

Truean

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10680 on: February 01, 2012, 10:44:51 pm »


[rant rantity rant rant rant]
http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-cuts-down-mass-moms-door-wrong-home-143434056.html

This is yet another reason I don't cut the police any slack. Though, this was the FBI.... So let's review officers, while looking for a drug dealer in the wrong apartment, you used a fucking chain saw to take down the front door, literally. Then you held this woman at gunpoint (to the head), even though she never exhibited the slightest bit of resistance, while her three year old cried in the other room, because someone was pointing a gun at mommy for 30 minutes.... Fuck you officer, it was 30 minutes, not 15 officer; don't try to backpedal; you lying shit. Of course, she's Hispanic so it's OK....

So you've traumatized some poor mom and her daughter because you're too stupid to do proper survey lance (yes it's intentional, I'm making fun of them: surveillance). Did I mention this totally tipped off the drug dealer you were actually after who has now flown the coup and the state. You will never find them again; two years of work wasted. Good job.... Yet another reason the 4th amendment exists, yet has been completely screwed over.

The courts seem to not care about this and brush this sorta thing off as a nuisance whenever possible , as it is yet another pain in the ass for them to deal with.

What the cops should've done; Dig in the garbage. No literally, get in there and dig in the garbage. It's abandoned property. You can survey the place and wait for someone to take out the trash that you know lives in the place. You can take a picture of the bag they throw in and then go after it. Plus, if you do it relatively shortly after they toss it; then it will be the one on the top. There will be bills and shit in there. It isn't hard; I've done it. I know the IRS does it (usually while glaring right at your windows because they can and they let you know they're doing it). If you wanna get creative, then get the garbage men in on it. Or have someone dress up as a homeless person. Who cares, figure it out. That'll verify his address and the apartment number. Take a look at some of the bills he's thrown away; they will have his full address on them. You'd be surprised how many people don't shred their bills. Did I mention this could be admissible in court as evidence if you find something incriminating? Cause it is.... Shit, we got Al Capone on tax evasion man....

And, that's the low tech solution. There's other shit you can do if you know what you're doing, but by all means, keep pointing guns at moms who have done nothing wrong instead of getting the actual criminals.... Lazy.... Phone taps, pen registers (a special type of phone tap), you can do all sorts of crap to make sure this doesn't happen and you don't. Why? Why are you so stupid that you don't know how the streets you operate on work? How is the FBI not getting this? They're supposed to be the best, right? [/rant rantity rant rant rant]

In less ranty news, yay: http://news.yahoo.com/wash-senate-begins-floor-debate-gay-marriage-024505541.html

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Heron TSG

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10681 on: February 01, 2012, 11:26:52 pm »

Wow, uh... They were looking for a man, and instead attacked the home of a woman. Please tell me they're getting sued over this.

@Washington - I've been writing and receiving letters with my congressfolk, and it seems to be a nigh-certainty. He's one of the more liberal Republicans, and his letter basically told me that the rest of the Republicans are only in opposition to secure votes. Almost nobody is fully against it. On the other hand, the spectators...

Quote from: Jane Sterland
It saddens me that there aren't more Christians here tonight," she said. "I'm just very grieved about this whole thing. I want to be here for prayer support against this issue."

...don't make any sense to me. It's not like they're forcing her to have a same-sex marriage.

As a Washington progressive, I'll admit that a big part of the push was because we wanted to be the first state to legalize it on the Pacific coast and keep it that way. This state is by a large margin liberal, but until recently the liberals haven't been quite so active as the conservatives. With the coming gubernatorial election, though, people are going nuts. I can't envision a better time to have put this bill up for debate. With all the liberals swarming around to get Jay Inslee elected to succeed Gregoire, there's only a snowball's chance in the Sun that the counter-referendum will overturn this.
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Montague

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10682 on: February 01, 2012, 11:35:26 pm »

I think sentences for crimes should be shorter, but prisons made infinitely less comfortable. Prison sentences should only be given to felony convictions. I'd model the long-sentence prison system off the system they use in Japan.

Solitary confinement 23/7, nutraloaf, all day everyday. Lights on, all day everyday. Prisoners are not allowed to talk, except for vistors and thier lawyers.

After a prison sentence they'd go into a halfway house or rehabilitation or vocational education if it'd be helpful for them. I'd probably also inact a clause that removes the "felon" second-class citizen status after a number of years, maybe every 5-7 years without any significant criminal offense, they can get their right to vote and whatnot reinstated.

I think making prison an intolerable, but brief experience will cut back on repeat offenses. I also think it would make prisons less expensive and manpower intensive to run. It gives former criminals plenty of second chances afterwards.

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Bauglir

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10683 on: February 01, 2012, 11:43:07 pm »

How does keeping the lights on 24/7 and requiring constant monitoring by staff or microphones to prevent talking cut costs?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10684 on: February 01, 2012, 11:47:04 pm »

Not to mention that kind of solitary confinement causes semi-permanent psychological damage.  Not quite the brief period of extreme discomfort followed by abundance of second chances that you're aiming for.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 11:48:36 pm by SalmonGod »
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alway

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10685 on: February 01, 2012, 11:48:42 pm »

The origin of the idea of "self deportation." http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/the-deep-comic-roots-of-self-deportation/?hp
Republican immigration views are now quite literally satire of Republican immigration views.
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Frumple

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10686 on: February 01, 2012, 11:52:26 pm »

Solitary confinement 23/7, nutraloaf, all day everyday. Lights on, all day everyday. Prisoners are not allowed to talk, except for vistors and thier lawyers.
I'll just go ahead and tell you this. One: That is outright and literal torture. It is full-stop worse than flogging them until their bones break, and any other number of viciously cruel punishments. Two: That will literally drive most human beings completely insane. It will fuck them royally up both psychologically and physiologically. It is a really damn bad idea.

After a prison sentence they'd go into a halfway house or rehabilitation or vocational education if it'd be helpful for them. I'd probably also inact a clause that removes the "felon" second-class citizen status after a number of years, maybe every 5-7 years without any significant criminal offense, they can get their right to vote and whatnot reinstated.
This, however, is pretty solid. It's seriously needed and seriously under implemented, currently. For most recidivism risks, it's the simple fact that crime is pretty damn close to their only choice once they get out of prison that leads them right back into it. Getting rid of the felon issue after a time would probably help, there, because felons are currently almost completely frakking unhireable. Job training, education, etc., would (and does, where it happens) also help.

I think making prison an intolerable, but brief experience will cut back on repeat offenses. I also think it would make prisons less expensive and manpower intensive to run. It gives former criminals plenty of second chances afterwards.
This point has actually been brought up in the past, maybe in this thread, maybe not. Turns out that prisons are actually already pretty fucking shitty, to put it bluntly. It's just a lot of people, especially folks that are at risk for recidivism, are living in situations outside of prison that are worse. Frankly, if a person has to choose between a living slice of hell and freezing to death (Because they have no home, no good clothes, no steady and sufficient source of food), well, a lot of people are going to go for that little bit of hell.
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Bauglir

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10687 on: February 01, 2012, 11:55:53 pm »

After a prison sentence they'd go into a halfway house or rehabilitation or vocational education if it'd be helpful for them. I'd probably also inact a clause that removes the "felon" second-class citizen status after a number of years, maybe every 5-7 years without any significant criminal offense, they can get their right to vote and whatnot reinstated.
This, however, is pretty solid. It's seriously needed and seriously under implemented, currently. For most recidivism risks, it's the simple fact that crime is pretty damn close to their only choice once they get out of prison that leads them right back into it. Getting rid of the felon issue after a time would probably help, there, because felons are currently almost completely frakking unhireable. Job training, education, etc., would (and does, where it happens) also help.
I will agree with this. It's just that I don't believe that prisons need to be any worse. I think we had a link a while ago about the generally terrible conditions that exist in prisons because people, particularly employees, don't think of criminals as human. Jails might be a different story, since I'm given to understand they're for very short term holding and not for sentencing, so I wouldn't conflate the two if you've seen one and not the other.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

G-Flex

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10688 on: February 02, 2012, 12:37:02 am »

Solitary confinement 23/7, nutraloaf, all day everyday. Lights on, all day everyday. Prisoners are not allowed to talk, except for vistors and thier lawyers.

This is the worst idea I've ever heard. You'd be better off executing them. Solitary confinement, especially with the lights on all the time and terrible food, is torture. Terrible torture. You'd break them psychologically within days. They would come out completely broken and unable to function, if it doesn't outright manage to kill them or cause them to kill themselves. You really ought to at least try to study what you're talking about before giving your opinions on things like this. It doesn't take much, seriously.
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Montague

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10689 on: February 02, 2012, 12:52:41 am »

just go ahead and tell you this. One: That is outright and literal torture. It is full-stop worse than flogging them until their bones break, and any other number of viciously cruel punishments. Two: That will literally drive most human beings completely insane. It will fuck them royally up both psychologically and physiologically. It is a really damn bad idea.

They can do things in their cells. Write letters, read something educational and possibly be released on occasion to do compensated work details. The point of the physical and social isolation is to remove power from the prisoners and protect them from themselves and any abuse by or to the guards. With the system we have now, prisoners have entirely too much freedom and rec time, to socialize, form gangs and abuse each other. They have power in their little microcosm, more power then the prison staff, even because the guards are often powerless to stop the worse of what prisoners do there. Allowing them to interact with other criminals gives them freedom to abuse and it simply reinforces a criminal gang mentality. They need to be deterred and rehabilitated from criminal behavior, not simply thrown into a cesspool even more demented, threatening, violent and savage then the outside world, which basically makes criminal behavior a requirement of survival.

This, however, is pretty solid. It's seriously needed and seriously under implemented, currently. For most recidivism risks, it's the simple fact that crime is pretty damn close to their only choice once they get out of prison that leads them right back into it. Getting rid of the felon issue after a time would probably help, there, because felons are currently almost completely frakking unhireable. Job training, education, etc., would (and does, where it happens) also help.

I think it'd help alot, but what really puts people back into prison is, without other options they simply go right back home to their old neighborhood and their old friends. Ultimately they end up doing whatever they were doing before in being reintroduced into that enviroment. America is a pretty dynamic country and people move often, I think I'd make it requirement that former prisoners should be disincentivsed or forbidden to return to the city they lived in for a few years after they get out, at least. Their rehabilitation might take place in another state or city altogether.



This point has actually been brought up in the past, maybe in this thread, maybe not. Turns out that prisons are actually already pretty fucking shitty, to put it bluntly. It's just a lot of people, especially folks that are at risk for recidivism, are living in situations outside of prison that are worse. Frankly, if a person has to choose between a living slice of hell and freezing to death (Because they have no home, no good clothes, no steady and sufficient source of food), well, a lot of people are going to go for that little bit of hell.

Prisons are shitty for the wrong reasons. They are shitty because prisons are full of shitty prisoners. The only shit they should have inflicted on them are by legal authorities in response to offenses to the law, not have shit inflicted on them by other prisoners for whatever offenses they invent in their prison culture. I also don't buy the idea that people have it worse off on the street then they do in prison. People can generally take care of themselves, people survive homelessness for decades at a time as a lifestyle choice. I really doubt many people are willing to commit some grave crime against somebody else and completely sacrifice their freedom just so they can get their nutraloaf and a heated room to sleep in. There are better options.

How does keeping the lights on 24/7 and requiring constant monitoring by staff or microphones to prevent talking cut costs?

I thought somebody might point that out. I imagine they'd just cover up the light if they really wanted to anyways, so I guess they don't need to be on all the time unless they deserve it. I imagine they can talk all they want in their cells, so long as nobody can hear them. On work details or whatever, they'll be monitored by guards anyhow and prevented from communicating with other prisoners and only speak when spoken to by a guard. This really isn't too different from military-style camps and prisons.

Not to mention that kind of solitary confinement causes semi-permanent psychological damage.  Not quite the brief period of extreme discomfort followed by abundance of second chances that you're aiming for.

I'm not sure solitary confinement really produces any real psychological damage when other factors are taken out of the equation. Some prisoners intentionally seek solitary confinement even at the expense of being ineligible for parole for not serving "good time". Any psychological changes it might cause are probably for the better, not worse when you're talking about deterring criminal behavior. Solitary survivors on shipwrecked islands don't try to bite people's noses off when they are rescued. Prisoners bite people's noses off to get put into solitary confinement.
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alway

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10690 on: February 02, 2012, 01:03:21 am »

I'm not sure solitary confinement really produces any real psychological damage when other factors are taken out of the equation. Some prisoners intentionally seek solitary confinement even at the expense of being ineligible for parole for not serving "good time". Any psychological changes it might cause are probably for the better, not worse when you're talking about deterring criminal behavior. Solitary survivors on shipwrecked islands don't try to bite people's noses off when they are rescued. Prisoners bite people's noses off to get put into solitary confinement.
You may not be sure, but the facts are.
Opponents of solitary confinement hold that it is a form of cruel and unusual punishment[10] and torture[11] because the lack of human contact, and the sensory deprivation that often go with solitary confinement, can have a severe negative impact on a prisoner's mental state[12] that may lead to certain mental illnesses such as depression, permanent or semi-permanent changes to brain physiology,[13] an existential crisis,[14][15][16][17] and death.[11]
Negative psychological effects have been documented,[18] leading one judge in a 2001 suit to rule that “[Solitary confinement] units are virtual incubators of psychoses—seeding illness in otherwise healthy inmates and exacerbating illness in those already suffering from mental infirmities.”[19]
In 2006, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America, chaired by John Joseph Gibbons and Nicholas Katzenbach found that: "The increasing use of high-security segregation is counter-productive, often causing violence inside facilities and contributing to recidivism after release."[20]
Solitary confinement as a disciplinary measure for prisoners in Europe was largely reduced or eliminated during the twentieth century.[8] In 2004, only 40 out of 75,000 inmates held in England and Wales were placed in solitary confinement cells.[21]
It can even go by a second name. White Torture.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 01:06:52 am by alway »
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lemon10

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10691 on: February 02, 2012, 01:12:18 am »

Solitary confinement 23/7, nutraloaf, all day everyday. Lights on, all day everyday. Prisoners are not allowed to talk, except for vistors and thier lawyers.

This is the worst idea I've ever heard. You'd be better off executing them. Solitary confinement, especially with the lights on all the time and terrible food, is torture. Terrible torture. You'd break them psychologically within days. They would come out completely broken and unable to function, if it doesn't outright manage to kill them or cause them to kill themselves. You really ought to at least try to study what you're talking about before giving your opinions on things like this. It doesn't take much, seriously.
Solitary confinement 23/7, nutraloaf, all day everyday. Lights on, all day everyday. Prisoners are not allowed to talk, except for vistors and thier lawyers.
I'll just go ahead and tell you this. One: That is outright and literal torture. It is full-stop worse than flogging them until their bones break, and any other number of viciously cruel punishments. Two: That will literally drive most human beings completely insane. It will fuck them royally up both psychologically and physiologically. It is a really damn bad idea.
Could someone give me evidence that its really that bad?
Because to me that sounds like hyperbole on your part.
Sure its bad, but isolation won't "break them within days", or "is worse then non-stop flogging until their bones break".
EDIT: Ninjaed
I'm not sure solitary confinement really produces any real psychological damage when other factors are taken out of the equation. Some prisoners intentionally seek solitary confinement even at the expense of being ineligible for parole for not serving "good time". Any psychological changes it might cause are probably for the better, not worse when you're talking about deterring criminal behavior. Solitary survivors on shipwrecked islands don't try to bite people's noses off when they are rescued. Prisoners bite people's noses off to get put into solitary confinement.
You may not be sure, but the facts are.
Opponents of solitary confinement hold that it is a form of cruel and unusual punishment[10] and torture[11] because the lack of human contact, and the sensory deprivation that often go with solitary confinement, can have a severe negative impact on a prisoner's mental state[12] that may lead to certain mental illnesses such as depression, permanent or semi-permanent changes to brain physiology,[13] an existential crisis,[14][15][16][17] and death.[11]
Negative psychological effects have been documented,[18] leading one judge in a 2001 suit to rule that “[Solitary confinement] units are virtual incubators of psychoses—seeding illness in otherwise healthy inmates and exacerbating illness in those already suffering from mental infirmities.”[19]
In 2006, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America, chaired by John Joseph Gibbons and Nicholas Katzenbach found that: "The increasing use of high-security segregation is counter-productive, often causing violence inside facilities and contributing to recidivism after release."[20]
Solitary confinement as a disciplinary measure for prisoners in Europe was largely reduced or eliminated during the twentieth century.[8] In 2004, only 40 out of 75,000 inmates held in England and Wales were placed in solitary confinement cells.[21]
It can even go by a second name. White Torture.
Sure that sounds bad, but not nearly as bad as what was being said, and checking the study, isn't nearly as bad as what G-Flex and Frumple said.

EDIT2: To clarify my position, I'm not a supporter of solitary confinement, I just think that their isn't enough evidence to say its as bad as a few people here said it is.
EDIT3: A component of white torture is solitary confinement, but calling solitary confinement white torture is incorrect.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 01:16:15 am by lemon10 »
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10692 on: February 02, 2012, 01:21:54 am »

Yes, but keep in mind the suggestion was originally 1. no talking (sound deprivation), 2. no darkness (deprivation of sense of time), 3. nutraloaf (deprivation of taste); the combination of sensory deprivation and social deprivation would in fact fall under the category of white torture.
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10693 on: February 02, 2012, 01:23:41 am »

Even without the even more cruel ideas here, it's pretty bad. Also:

"In 2006, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America, chaired by John Joseph Gibbons and Nicholas Katzenbach found that: "The increasing use of high-security segregation is counter-productive, often causing violence inside facilities and contributing to recidivism after release."

Makes sense to me. You've just kept them in solitary confinement long enough to piss them off, in the long run, it's even more of a detriment to society.
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement )
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Heron TSG

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #10694 on: February 02, 2012, 01:23:54 am »

You cannot reintegrate someone into society by removing them society and punishing them for trying.
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