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[Frumple]

There's also a transcript! Which is nice, in a sense.

Mixed feelings, though, sorta'. It feels kinda' like we have some sort of obligation to, yanno', uplift the rest of the world. To help folks not have to slog through the shitstorms we did when industrializing, implementing new technologies, and all that. S'just... yanno'. Why are there still folks working in factories like that when we could automate, and save so much suffering? Why are there folks still tilling ground with hoes and oxen when we could help them build tractors and so forth? And etc., etc., etc. There's just always been this little niggling thing in the back of my head that things the "Solution" to the so-called third world is for the first world to get off their ass and bring them on up.

But on the other hand, why the hell is it on our shoulders? There's no actual obligation. There's no guarantee these industrializing or pre-industrial areas can even support the advances we've got. It's definitely a damn sight cheaper in the short-term to not do it, and frankly inefficiency employs more people, so isn't that some kind of macabre (possibly net, even!) benefit?

S'just... I'unno. A lot of the folks at the top of the world right now seem to flaunt their moral superiority, yeah, but they're all bark, no bite. S'what it feels like, anyway. We could bring most of the world up to us, but don't. To hell with the reasons why we don't, we don't. And there's something wrong about that. It might not be a net wrong. Might be for the better, in some sense. It doesn't feel right, though.

S'also two in the morning and I've been pretty damn melancholy for the past couple weeks, mostly because of corporations and other power blocs doing their normal stupid immoral shit, so whatever, I guess. Nap time.

[G-Flex]

But on the other hand, why the hell is it on our shoulders? There's no actual obligation.

The obligation is that we're the ones enabling it and profiting from it. This isn't a "not our problem" scenario because our consumer habits are exactly why those factories exist.

[justinlee999]

Also about the IQ article

For example, he said, many anti-prejudice programs encourage participants to see things from another group's point of view. That mental exercise may be too taxing for people of low IQ.

That quote made me laugh for some reason.

How sensationalist.

[Virex]

There's also a transcript! Which is nice, in a sense.

Mixed feelings, though, sorta'. It feels kinda' like we have some sort of obligation to, yanno', uplift the rest of the world. To help folks not have to slog through the shitstorms we did when industrializing, implementing new technologies, and all that. S'just... yanno'. Why are there still folks working in factories like that when we could automate, and save so much suffering? Why are there folks still tilling ground with hoes and oxen when we could help them build tractors and so forth? And etc., etc., etc. There's just always been this little niggling thing in the back of my head that things the "Solution" to the so-called third world is for the first world to get off their ass and bring them on up.

Are you suggesting we should colonize the savage lands to show them what civilization is? Invoking the White man's burden is a baaaad idea unless you're speaking to a room of tea partyists.

[Frumple]

Yes, I'm aware of the white man's burden parallel, but... no. Just... no. It's called teaching, providing technological know-how, materials where it's needed. Bringing the rest of the world up to parity instead of sitting here exploiting them. Not colonization and exploitation. Mankind's (obviously theoretical/unpracticed, but it's in most of the books!) moral obligation to mankind, to see suffering reduced when possible. You're legally culpable in the states if you just sit there and watch when a person is being tortured or murdered. There's a moral parallel there.

Or do you actually think just... letting what's happening in places like China happen is a good thing? That not providing the tools and knowledge base to modernize agricultural practices is a moral action? That "benign neglect" is the right way to go?*

I'm not invoking white man's burden. I'm not saying, "Hey, you have to end up exactly like us." I'm saying, "HEY! We've fucked up doing what you're doing before. Let us show you how to avoid our screwups!" And then helping them get the point they can at least punch a little in the big leagues. We can help people skip a few steps on the industrialization ladder, steps that caused us a whole hell of a lot of problems. We can also help the reach the point they're not completely defenseless and exploitable by more industrialized countries.

Because if they can afford to do that in on a material level, economic and technological parity is something I have trouble seeing as a bad thing for our species. We have some really frakking cool toys and knowledge of how to use them without causing quite so many problems as using them used to cause. I'm saying, yanno', share the ruddy toys with the kids down the street. To a larger extent than we are already, anyway.

Full information exchange and infrastructure/tool aid when it'd help. Suck up the short term cost and don't just hand out money; give materials and possibly short term specialists. Work to help people be more able to help themselves.

* Though that's completely ignoring that our actual actions as-is is both not neglect and only partially benign. But hell, I basically said that I can see that, can see saying benign neglect is the way to go. It just doesn't feel right to me. There's something off on the moral aspect of that.

[Virex]

Your proposal still sounds a lot like forcing your benevolence upon them (They may want fridges but who says they want our "healthy and easily processable food" to go with that?). The only way to make any advancements without colonizing them is to put the initiative at their side. Provide the knowledge and resources if they ask for it, but don't assume we know what's best for them. What use is it to send them tools and teachers if the only ones thinking they need them are we?

[Vector]

Apple and the iPhone...

Porn and masculinity (from a male perspective)

[Frumple]

Porn and masculinity (from a male perspective)

Is... the book any good? Intro and stuff doesn't really say much other than 'hey, went out and asked some folks on the ground.' Is link post thumbs up or thumbs down?

As for the apple thing... blegh. I maintain again it's going to suck switching over to linux, as I'm not very code minded, but the other OS companies have officially gone evil, so what the hell other choice is there? Real trick is going to be finding third party hardware manufacturers that don't buy from that fox-whatever but still has hardware I can actually afford

[ChairmanPoo]

I'm not an IT professional, yet I'm not having too much trouble with linux. Debian in particular emphasizes compatibility. That,s why debian derived distros are among the most popular, methinks

[Euld]

Porn and masculinity (from a male perspective)

I think men are afraid to discuss pornography.  There's huge cultural stigmas involved.  A lot of people believe that people who watch it are creepy, weird, and disturbed.

[Descan]

Wonder what Virex is gonna say.

That'll be fun. :U

[DJ]

Whatever would be the most trollish response. Probably something about this David dude being in on the patriarchy conspiracy.

[Frumple]

I think men are afraid to discuss pornography.  There's huge cultural stigmas involved.  A lot of people believe that people who watch it are creepy, weird, and disturbed.

I'd have an easier time buying into that line if the pornography industry wasn't so frakking huge, even in the face of absolutely massive amounts of (legally, even!) free material.

S'always kind of struck me as more of a personal thing, really, which is why it's not discussed much in public. Most don't exactly go about discussing their depilatory practices at the drop of a hat, either. But both these opinions are almost hilariously unsupported by statsitical data and research, from what I understand

I'll give that the cultural standards re: porn does seem terribly two-faced, though. I'm reminded of a webcomic page I can't remember the name of, where it gave the short form of a case against an adult video store owner on obscenity grounds (or something along those lines) in some conservative part of the states or another. Apparently the defense went and subpoenaed the pay-per-view purchase records for the town, which were... illuminating. To quote, turned out that town "had needs." The obscenity charge was dropped, heh.

It'd be interesting to see the actual numbers on porn consumption, especially if you could filter for non-response/cultural stigma. There was at least one number on the various wikipedia pages that cited 800 million video/DVD rentals in "recent years," which is nearly 3x the population of the entire country and doesn't account for other means of distribution. The numbers are probably out there, but my (very, incredibly) cursory wikipedia browse didn't have anything that jumped out at me.

[DrPoo]

Porn and masculinity (from a male perspective)

I think men are afraid to discuss pornography.  There's huge cultural stigmas involved.  A lot of people believe that people who watch it are creepy, weird, and disturbed.

The fun thing is that i always discuss pornography with one of my female friends, we kind of share fetishes, heh.
She kind of needs the p0rnz before.. you know

(Note: Not my girlfriend)

[SalmonGod]

Porn and masculinity (from a male perspective)

I think men are afraid to discuss pornography.  There's huge cultural stigmas involved.  A lot of people believe that people who watch it are creepy, weird, and disturbed.

I agree that the cultural norms regarding this are incredibly inconsistent, as with just about anything related to sexuality.  To some people, you're weird if you don't.  To others, you're a monster if you do.

When I was in high school in small-town-Indiana, guys would always try to get each other to admit to masturbating, which was implied to be one of the most demasculating social blunders possible just because you're supposed to be getting laid instead.  At the same time, you were expected to be interested in porn.

Except for innocent humor, I'm one of those who just doesn't discuss anything sexual at all, especially in person, with anyone but my significant other.  Too many people are too judgmental.  I don't even have any weird fetishes or anything, and the subject makes me uncomfortable.