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[GlyphGryph]

I was more refering to the likes of PCP

PCP is... a bit more than a straight hallucinogen. It's classified as a dissociative, yes, which is technically a hallucinogen, but I don't think it's particularly representative of the subset.

That is some bad stuff.

[G-Flex]

Sweden: Requires forced sterilization of transgendered/genderqueer people if they want to transition legally.

Fucking seriously?

Gonna be gone for a while, so be good, kids, and if all else fails branch it off into another thread.
[/mom]

Oi.  What the hell Sweden?  I can't believe forced(well, sorta) sterilization is still even something people can even consider.

It is pretty bad, although it's been misrepresented by (some) progressive types a lot. I've heard it described very often as "transgender individuals are forced to undergo sterilization", whereas it's more like "fertile people of X biological sex are not allowed to identify legally as Y gender (unless they change that first part)". It's pretty awful, either way, but there's still a difference there that a lot of people don't seem to acknowledge. Not so much a problem in this thread, though, it seems.

[Levi]

It is pretty bad, although it's been misrepresented by (some) progressive types a lot. I've heard it described very often as "transgender individuals are forced to undergo sterilization", whereas it's more like "fertile people of X biological sex are not allowed to identify legally as Y gender (unless they change that first part)". It's pretty awful, either way, but there's still a difference there that a lot of people don't seem to acknowledge. Not so much a problem in this thread, though, it seems.

Ah.  I had horrible images of people going to get sterilized if they wanted to legally change their gender. 

Still lousy though.

[G-Flex]

Well, I think that is the case, in the sense that you aren't allowed to transition legally unless you undergo sterilization. Something like that, anyway. So it's more a... coercive sterilization program than a forced sterilization program.

[Frumple]

... from what I'm reading of what you said, G, they're actually perfectly fine with transgendered going through the transition operation and hormone treatments and so forth, self identifying as whatever, changing their name to whatever they prefer, etc., so on, so forth, they just can't legally (as in only on the census or tax forms or whatever) change their gender?

I mean, it's still absolute bullshit, but that's a considerably different order of bullshit compared to, say, forcing sterilization before the other aspects of transitioning is allowed.

[Rose]

So basically their stance is that you can't legally be considered a woman if you can impregnate a woman.

[GlyphGryph]

I don't think this is that surprising - Sweden has a thing for Bureaucracy and legal terms. This is the country that requires a name be "government approved" before you can give it to your child.

They have a love of technical, strict identification systems.

[Truean]

Sweden: Requires forced sterilization of transgendered/genderqueer people if they want to transition legally.

Fucking seriously?

Gonna be gone for a while, so be good, kids, and if all else fails branch it off into another thread.
[/mom]

Oi.  What the hell Sweden?  I can't believe forced(well, sorta) sterilization is still even something people can even consider.

It is pretty bad, although it's been misrepresented by (some) progressive types a lot. I've heard it described very often as "transgender individuals are forced to undergo sterilization", whereas it's more like "fertile people of X biological sex are not allowed to identify legally as Y gender (unless they change that first part)". It's pretty awful, either way, but there's still a difference there that a lot of people don't seem to acknowledge. Not so much a problem in this thread, though, it seems.

Well, clearly I was going to say something about this....

First of all, never mind that its against the European Convention on Human Rights which is enacted as law in Sweden. Those things only apply to people "we" (assholes) like. More selective reading of only parts of things certain people want....

Let's look at the fundamental rights we're talking about giving up for legal recognition:

1.) Procreation Ability/Freedom from Forced Sterilization: Basically they're saying they don't like people like me and we shouldn't be allowed to breed. How lovely. What if the transgendered person is attracted to members of the sex they are transitioning to. That is if a MtF likes girls (lesbian?) or a FtM likes men (gay?). Personally, I'm MtF who likes men.... Isn't it just great that these people can't have a child for no real logical reason.... Hurray bigotry. If we're allowed to have state forced sterilization, then we should expand it to that.... Better idea, let's just not have it....

This kills off any alternative form of medical reproduction as well. It's stupid.

I know, this is only if you want legal recognition, but o well. That's huge in and of itself.

2.) Being in a relationship: From the article, "it already creates at least one anomaly, in that the present law also requires TS/TG and gender variant people to be single in order to receive legal gender recognition – and this in a country which already has same sex marriages. Courts have previously overruled this requirement, but nevertheless it is still enshrined in the law."

So you have to be single and you certainly can't have a kid, because the attitude is "you're a freak and we'll never really accept you...." [sigh] The only way we'll sort of kind of accept you is if you meet our ridiculous demands that we impose for no rational reason but rather due to our fear and bigotry....  The fact that the courts have already overruled this because that country already has same sex marriage isn't the point. It's called you're illegal; it's illegal to be you.... Lovely feeling that is.... Depending upon how their legal system works, the fact that the law is on the books may also have secondary effects. Those "breaking" said law, could have it bite them in contracts, etc.

Well, I think that is the case, in the sense that you aren't allowed to transition legally unless you undergo sterilization. Something like that, anyway. So it's more a... coercive sterilization program than a forced sterilization program.

It's a um [ahem] "final snip," problem traditionally:
I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the difference. "Coercive" v. "forced?" While I could physically transition under such a law, I could never be legally recognized as female under said requirement unless I complied. Personally, I don't care, as I'd happily undergo full SRS and thus be medically sterilized by choice, or rather because the technology to give me a fully biologically female body doesn't exist. However, other people might not like that or might not be able to do that.

Consider also that we're talking about major surgery. Some people aren't healthy enough for that. [sigh] You can't really get into what it is without being somewhat vulgar due to what's being operated on, but frankly it involves a lot of destructive and reconstructive surgery. If you have blood pressure issues, blood clotting issues, heart disease, or a whole host of other factors, then you might not be able to have SRS because it's a major surgery. This is especially a risk for older transsexual individuals who were unable to transition earlier in life due to numerous factors. Let's not forget, this surgery is expensive, though in Sweden, their state medical care program might cover it.

If they can't have SRS and be sterilized that way, then that would necessarily lead to other compliance methods including chemical castration (which has nasty side effects) or something else? What an immense burden to put on someone for no real reason.... So, what's the point? I submit there is none.

Not being legally recognized might not physically stop you but it makes it 1000x more difficult and then there's that lovely feeling of yet another hurtle and yet another control other people have over your body and life. When you ask why they have this control and why you must bear this burden, you're not answered rationally if at all....

Some actually pretty good journalism on transgendered individuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5P9kUz0yO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7cq8Gezx4Y&feature=relmfu

[Euld]

SOPA and PIPA are magically sealed away!  Supporters say "you'll regret that" and threaten revenge, especially should we look the other way.

[Criptfeind]

Looks like it is more postponed.

[Truean]

http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-orders-texas-election-redistricting-183839253.html

So forget the journalists. Let me tell you what actually happened and what needs to happen.

The republicans Gerrymandered the shit out of Texas in ridiculous ways. They got caught doing it, plain and simple. As a result of them getting caught, a lower court tried to impose a remedy and do it's own redistricting. This remedy is the problem.

Whereas the republicans went too far in their own favor when redistricting, the court went too far in the democrat's favor. The pendulum swung too damn far both ways. We need some sort of neutral ground.

So electoral maps shouldn't really favor anybody. They should reflect the population and be neutral. The problem is, especially in our increasingly divided society, nobody is neutral. Who can you trust to really make a neutral election district map?

What I think we need is some mathematical system or something to get at population density, not who is what political party living where. This leads to congress and state representatives drawing up district boundaries to ensure they will be reelected, because they will make wacky lines to get areas where their political party overwhelmingly resides. This marginalizes those people in said area who are the opposing political party.

We really need something based upon both land area and population. It would be relatively fair and impartial. At least that's my opinion. As it stands, there really isn't a good answer.

[Nadaka]

Re: gerrymandering
Algorithms already exist to partition states fairly based. The simplest uses county based population counts. But it isn't any more complex to use data points for every residence, it just takes longer.


http://news.yahoo.com/gay-honor-killing-movie-shakes-turkey-113831171.html

Yea... If you don't want to fly into a homicidal rage against homophobes, don't read the comments.

[Virex]

Re: gerrymandering
Algorithms already exist to partition states fairly based. The simplest uses county based population counts. But it isn't any more complex to use data points for every residence, it just takes longer.


http://news.yahoo.com/gay-honor-killing-movie-shakes-turkey-113831171.html

Yea... If you don't want to fly into a homicidal rage against homophobes, don't read the comments.

Considering there's roughly 1 honor killing per week in Istanbul alone I'm surprised that people are shocked by this. Of course, the difference could be that most victims of honor killings are female and/or Kurdish instead of 'real' people...   

[Luke_Prowler]

Or maybe it's because most people don't don't know about the honor killings, Virex.  It surprises me that people actually do that, reguardless of who the victim is.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also note that making alcohol illegal kind of worked out horribly for the country, so there's that.

And honestly, I'll be surprised when Oregon isn't the first state to fully legalize marijuana

Canada's face when we legalize weed before them.

I was more refering to the likes of PCP

PCP is... a bit more than a straight hallucinogen. It's classified as a dissociative, yes, which is technically a hallucinogen, but I don't think it's particularly representative of the subset.

That is some bad stuff.

PCP: It will make you tear off your clothes and attack the cops by beating them with their own severed arms, as you bleed out from multiple gunshot wounds. It really is the only thing that we shouldn't legalize under any circumstances.