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[ChairmanPoo]

Increasing aviability can in turn increase the problem.

(And while I grant you that an adulterated drug batch will likely be worse than one done with industrial standards, that doesn't make those drugs harmless. Taking your particular example: amphetamines are certainly not)

[Frumple]

Increasing aviability can in turn increase the problem.

Well, definitely. That's one of the reasons alcohol and tobacco related deaths are among the leading causes of death in the US.

That's apparently not sufficient to criminalize those two (or at least the previous attempt at the former failed, leading to increase criminal activity and no really substantial drop in usage... parallels, much?).

No one's arguing that drugs aren't harmful, and are not a problem, I don't think, only that they'd be less of a problem if legalized and controlled so as to be as harmless as possible.

[Tellemurius]

Increasing aviability can in turn increase the problem.

(And while I grant you that an adulterated drug batch will likely be worse than one done with industrial standards, that doesn't make those drugs harmless. Taking your particular example: amphetamines are certainly not)

Indeed as i said the legal versions are clean but this is changing chemistry in your head, i only take them (last i was prescribed, hate the buggers) to calm me down, because of the reversal effect on normal people its extremely dangerous.

[kaijyuu]

@kaijuu -
1. That's strange, seeming as every investigation into the matter seem to come to the conclusion that it will.

I did use the word "significantly." Yes I suspect drug use would go up. How much, though?

2. You do realise the crap they add to cigarettes make them both more addictive and unhealthy, right? Legal /= Unlaced.

There's really no comparison between what they add to cigarettes and what's often added to drugs.

Will there still be lacing? Maybe. I do know it can be regulated, though, and that's a significant step up. There won't be laundry detergent being added to cocaine anymore.

As for the "stupid people deserve to die" argument, well, that doesn't even deserve a reply.

Perhaps the darwin award comment was inappropriate. I wouldn't say "deserving." I would say, though, that people have a right to suicide. I'm pro euthanasia, and in any way they wish.

[Canalan]

We as a species imbibe poisonous substances to get a thrill.  It ranges from the relatively harmless hot peppers and sour things and caffeine to the deadly, such as meth and alcohol.  If I drink and drive, I can kill myself and others.  If I drink too much, I can kill myself at varying speeds, and yet, it is legal.  Making it illegal only makes the problem worse, as it introduces the unregulated product into market.  My above example of killer moonshine is a sterling example.  See, if you take varnished wood, and boil it (I think) you can eventually boil the varnish out of the wood and decant it from the water.  The resultant liquid is both highly alcoholic and highly toxic.  It can and will blind and kill you.  During prohibition, this "wood alcohol" was distilled and sold to speakeasies by the gallon.  Many people went blind, and many died.  We legalized alcohol again, and deaths due to "poison alcohol" declined.  Quality control is everything.  You can't stop people from poisoning themselves, but you can control the lethality of the poison, if manufacture and distribution of said poison is controlled  That is why drugs should be legalized.  Also profit.

And I don't understand how drugs are different from alcohol in this respect.  Yes, some of them are very addictive, but so is booze.  Yes, some can kill you, but hey, so can booze.  Differing speeds of death is an unimportant issue.

[ChairmanPoo]

I think it's a bad idea. Tobacco and, particularily, alcohol, are difficult to eradicate due to their ingrainment into society (at least the fight against tobacco is succeeding, now). I don't think letting other destructive drugs become popular and established is a good idea.

[Frumple]

They (especially cannabis, but a number of other major drugs as well) are already popular and established, though. Just illegal and more dangerous than they have to be, because they're not being controlled.

If being ingrained in society is our heuristic, we've got to at least legalize marijuana, probably a few others as well.

Taking hold of production and going on a campaign similar to tobacco isn't a good idea, per se, it's just the best one available. Criminalization isn't working (this is painfully blatant) and is causing more lives to be endangered than is necessary.

[kaijyuu]

I'd also like to point out that "being ingrained in our society" is never a good reason to allow anything. Ever.

Certainly a practical problem to be overcome, but not impossible.

[DJ]

Having freedom to do what you want to with your own body is a good reason, though.

[Heron TSG]

Here's how I can imagine legalizing all drugs without catastrophic consequences:

First of all, just because they're legal doesn't mean everyone will want to do them. Those who use meth or 'soft' drugs at an early age usually do so due to peer pressure. (I don't have statistics there, but it's a reasonable assumption that it's not because they're being threatened or bribed.) The thing with meth, for an example, is that it can be addictive after the first hit. If someone gets hooked on meth, they're pretty much boned if the system catches them. If meth were legal and therapy was offered in place of incarceration, a significant number of people might turn themselves in to get help. I can't imagine most people want to be meth heads for the rest of their lives.

[ChairmanPoo]

You can decriminalize consumption without legalizing the selling of the product

[Phmcw]

Don't make me laugh with the availability issue : weed is the easiest substance to acquire on the fucking planet, and the only one I saw a stranger without any knowledge of the local language buy.
Seriously, things you can get in a foreign country : 1 water 2 food 3 weed. Alcohol would be 3rd if not for hard Muslims countries.

Beside that choice is arbitrary : The trash mac Donald feed you is worse for your health than weed, and let's not speak of tobacco and alcohol.

The bottom line is : drug trade is beneficial for a lot of peoples, as is high criminality and violence.

[GlyphGryph]

And just to not have an example that can't be related back to alchol and tobacco: Hallucinogens, which are far more dangerous than the big two, not just to the user but possible to anyone in the room at the drop of a hat.

Wait wait WHAT? Ha, you have to be kidding. There are drugs that are dangerous, but hallucinogens? As in, psychadelics? LSD, magic mushrooms, that sort of stuff? You can't be serious. Pretty much every major study on drug lethality has found them be, overall, very safe. Like alcohol, you can certainly do stupid things when you're on them (especially if you take too much), but there's not really any evidence for the common hallucinogens being any sort of risk to anyone unless the user is stupid enough to operate heavy machinery while on it. (which, again, goes for most any drug)

I mean, delirients, maybe. But no one uses deliriants - most of them are still legal because that shit is stupid and no one bothers.

[Il Palazzo]

Beside that choice is arbitrary : The trash mac Donald feed you is worse for your health than weed, and let's not speak of tobacco and alcohol.

I don't know, man. Weed gave me the worst kind of hangover I've ever felt in my life. I thought my frontal lobes would fall off, and the feeling wouldn't go away for two days.
If only I could reliably get the same kind of crashlanding after alcohol, fags* and junk food, I'd be oh so much healthier.

*BRE meaning

[Phmcw]

Weird, because no one I know told me about these symptoms.

But obesity, and look at the rates in US, is becoming a worse threat than famine, which say everything. And it is involved in mood swing, with at least one study showing a link between sugar bar consumption and aggressive behavior.

But that's just that peoples what to be ablee to say "that is good" and "that is bad" with stupid argument like "it isn't bad if you use it wisely" and "it is bad if you take too much of it, therefore it's bad". I mean every possible substance is concerned by those two sentence ; Churchill managed his bipolarity with alcohol for fuck's sake, and every antidepressant ever is a drug by it's own right. Drink too much water and you may get addicted (to drinking too much water) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication and kill you!

Bottom line is : don't be stupid. If you feel the need to calm yourself, sure a bit of weed may help, and if you smoke like a chimney, you'll get sick. Eating one burger once won't harm you, but eating at Mac Donald morning noon and evening will kill you. Driving at 90mph on German highway in dry weather with a good car is reasonable, while doing the same at rush hours while it rain will get you killed. So, be responsible is the bottom line here, and I even agree to throw some of my hard earned money into building rehabilitation center for those who fuck up, so STOP THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT WAR ON DRUGS.