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[Virex]

I would've thought that someone who refuses to date non-Caucasians is pretty racist? He is after all making a distinction on a completely arbitrary difference. Of course it's not something you can have conscious control over, but that doesn't change the situation itself.

[Descan]

Well, you need to be attracted to someone to date them, usually. Or else you're just toying with them. Pretty cruel to do that.

Besides, it's not racist if they're willing to be friendly in all other respects with a, say, black girl, even if they aren't attracted. They're just... not attracted to them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I would've thought that someone who refuses to date non-Caucasians is pretty racist? He is after all making a distinction on a completely arbitrary difference. Of course it's not something you can have conscious control over, but that doesn't change the situation itself.

No, not really. You can choose to only date people of one race and not be racist. There are indeed people who are legitimately unattracted to people of different races and aren't racist. You're allowed to discriminate when it comes to trying to find someone to share your life with, because your life is half of the ones getting involved. You have a vote, specifically 50% of the votes, in this matter.

I, for example, will never date someone who is morbidly obese because that trait is a gamebreaker for me. I do not hate or discriminate against very fat people, I just wouldn't want to date one because that is a physical quality that I am inherently unattracted to. I do not date men for the same reason.

[Bauglir]

Yes, it is, but it's important to keep in mind that all these "isms" are only problems when they're applied to situations where the quality in question is irrelevant. For instance, discriminating by upper body strength when determining who is allowed to enter combat as infantry in the military is perfectly acceptable. Discriminating by gender is pretty silly.

For myself, I'm willing to accept that physical appearance (including those parameters defined by biological sex) is relevant to attraction as practically axiomatic. You can ask "Why?" but at that point it seems almost on the same level as asking "Why do I particularly value my family?" There's an explanation as to how you got there, to be sure, but that doesn't explain why you should, and I've never as yet found a moral system that can't be "Why?"'d back to completely arbitrary decisions. That's hardly useful for convincing somebody, of course, but it's all I know how to contribute to the conversation.

EDIT: There were 5 replies I didn't have time to read, so hopefully I didn't miss anything important in them.

[Truean]

What book Vector recommended?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=85981.msg2508418#msg2508418
Judith Butler's book called Gender Trouble

Also, /how/ do you know you only like men? Honestly, I've never quite understood the distinction. People are people, as long as they have the attractive bits and pieces I like, who cares what gender they are.

I suppose if you only like certain gender-specific features....

[shrugs] I honestly really tried to like women for years and denied that I liked men for even longer than that. The funny thing is, I "chose" to like women. Did... not... work. I'm not the slightest bit aroused by women, at all. I seem to have had the opportunity to be with girls repeatedly in fact, but just no thank you. The thought, sight, or even touch do nothing for me at all. I'd happily trade that for being her good friend. Sometimes it works out that way. Sometimes it doesn't and that's sad. The best result of this is usually sitting around in sweatpants watching movies.

Men on the other hand.... [blush]. Yeah.... My life would be a million times easier if I could like girls/was "normal." I do not, and um... am not?

[kaijyuu]

Here's the difference:

If you choose not to date someone from group X because something about every member of group X, without exception makes them unattractive to you, then it's not unfairly discriminatory. You're not discriminating them because of the group they're in, but the trait they have.

If you choose not to date someone from group X because something about some members of group X, with exceptions makes them unattractive to you, THEN you're being unfairly discriminatory. You're discriminating against the group, not the trait.

[GlyphGryph]

It's weird - form the way Truean, and other people, describe it, I'm not sure if I'm bisexual, pansexual, or just plain asexual. I don't really find either gender particularly attractive, and the concept of finding someone attractive just cause they're of the opposite gender... I guess I'm not sure what it feels like. For the longest time I didn't find anyone at all particularly attractive. When I was attracted to anyone at all, it was... a certain mind or personality or mode of behaviour.

I only started being attracted to strangers in some way after I'd been sexually active for a while, and only to people similar to those I'd already been with, making me believe the attraction was in large part due to familiarity. As in - I associated those positive emotions I had with this stranger and thus felt some attraction.

So, it's like - if you met someone you absolutely clicked with, perfectly, but a girl, you just wouldn't be interested at all in moving it beyond the friendship stage? Or would there just be something in the way that ever really stopped it from "clicking" in the same way?

[Truean]

It's weird - form the way Truean, and other people, describe it, I'm not sure if I'm bisexual, pansexual, or just plain asexual. I don't really find either gender particularly attractive, and the concept of finding someone attractive just cause they're of the opposite gender... I guess I'm not sure what it feels like. For the longest time I didn't find anyone at all particularly attractive. When I was attracted to anyone at all, it was... a certain mind or personality or mode of behaviour.

I only started being attracted to strangers in some way after I'd been sexually active for a while, and only to people similar to those I'd already been with, making me believe the attraction was in large part due to familiarity. As in - I associated those positive emotions I had with this stranger and thus felt some attraction.

So, it's like - if you met someone you absolutely clicked with, perfectly, but a girl, you just wouldn't be interested at all in moving it beyond the friendship stage? Or would there just be something in the way that ever really stopped it from "clicking" in the same way?

Personally, I've already met that girl and I'll be her best friend, but never boyfriend. She actually still has a tad of a crush on me, and can't really deal with it. This is partially my fault. We don't talk that terribly much because of it, but we do talk and it's great when we do. I'm weird and keep tabs on her, but she appreciates it and jokes about it. She just smiles, because I'm usually in court to defend her before she is. She practically, can't get arrested in this town without me already having bail posted. It's hilarious in its own messed up way.

I've shown up twice uncalled to defend her criminally in court and a few other times for other legal things. Her landlord is also scared shitless of me, due to his trying badly to be a slum lordland. No.... She once had a delivery job and hit a god damn deer. Her boss attempted to make it come out of her paycheck rather than report it to insurance, because his premium would've gone up. I think I invented numerous profanities explaining to him why "Bambi, aka leaps the fuck in front of you, the road obstruction" wasn't her problem and how he knew his policy would more than cover the damage. I don't like extortion; it covered the damage. The thing is, if someone's breaking one law, they're probably breaking others, he was! It's amazing how persuasive you can be showing up with a legal complaint already drafted and ready to file....

I met her in college and will always be her friend. Even before I was an attorney, she happily and knowingly acted as my "beard," which is to say pretending to be my girlfriend to throw off my family et al. She kissed me a couple times; it was weird.... I didn't like it. She actually said she wouldn't mind marrying me if it came to that as long as it was "open." I told her that though I lie constantly and convincingly, even I'm not capable of that level of fraud. That's exactly what it would be if I married her, a complete and total fucking fraud, because I don't love her. I simply  and absolutely don't love her like that. She's an amazing friend, but I will never, ever love her, solely on account of her being female.

What can I say? The only place I'll be happy that way is in a man's arms....

[Frumple]

I can sorta' see where Glyph's coming from here, I think. What you said, Tru, can be rephrased very vulgarly as, "The thing that really matters is that they've got a dick." The rest of it? "Well, it'd be great if they've got all those, yanno', behaviorally perfect things, but no dick, no go. Just friends, because deyz ain't got no cock." Genitalia and some minor hormonal differences being the only genuine differences between genders. The rest is behavioral, which can manifest in either gender.

Which isn't exactly an unusual stance to take, really. The majority of the human race is exactly like that. It's very normal. Hell, I am too, mostly (Though that's more because of the misandry than anything else). It's just hard to get that position to "link," conceptually, with someone that really deep-down doesn't care what gender the person is so long as the behavioral aspects sync.

[Truean]

I can sorta' see where Glyph's coming from here, I think. What you said, Tru, can be rephrased very vulgarly as, "The thing that really matters is that they've got a dick." The rest of it? "Well, it'd be great if they've got all those, yanno', behaviorally perfect things, but no dick, no go. Just friends, because deyz ain't got no cock." Genitalia and some minor hormonal differences being the only genuine differences between genders. The rest is behavioral, which can manifest in either gender.

Which isn't exactly an unusual stance to take, really. The majority of the human race is exactly like that. It's very normal. Hell, I am too, mostly (Though that's more because of the misandry than anything else). It's just hard to get that position to "link," conceptually, with someone that really deep-down doesn't care what gender the person is so long as the behavioral aspects sync.

Vulgarity aside, nopes. I don't think I could be attracted to a pre op MtF transsexual [blush]. It's also not just any guy. he doesn't have to live at the gym or anything, but yeah, the slightly more masculine type....

[Frumple]

Then the attraction isn't to anything that's actually there, in any meaningful sense. Or at least not anything that has to do with biological gender or "maleness". So-called masculine behavior doesn't have anything to do with genitalia, nor does it really have anything to with being classified or self-identifying as male; it's just a particular set of behavioral patterns.

There's nothing preventing someone that just happens to have female reproductive organs from manifesting those patterns. What about a pre-op FtM, ferex? What about men who are very "feminine," but happened to have all the other behavioral nuances you're looking for?

Point being that it's either the physical aspect that you're fixating on or a set of behavior patterns, because there's no necessary connection between the two. Basically, it's either the cock or it's not the cock; in the case of the former, it's purely physical (and the pre-op MtF would be fine, if everything else was in order, though post-op wouldn't be.), in the latter, not actually anything to do with your intended being male. It's just that it happens that males have tended to express the behavioral patterns you find attractive up to this point. Which is fine either way, really. Most of our species has managed all throughout time to get by with even less of a consideration of an issue than that.

Or at least that's more or less how I see it. I'm mostly attracted to women because I've got a greater aesthetic fondness for the female form than male more than anything else, because both the major behavioral manifestations of so-called "masculine" and "feminine" behavioral patterns just get on my nerves. If a bloke happened to 'ave th'mounds an'cleft o'Venus along with th'wedding tackle and was able to avoid most of the violently annoying cultural artifacts attached to gender, I'd be as attracted to them as I would to a lady. A futa is okay too~

Hell, just the latter half of that qualifier is sufficient, really. Gender is only tangential to that, not integral, though. That's part of the whole "Human before man or woman" thing.

Anyway tl;dr [/ramble] version: Male isn't actually a thing that exists outside the biological. Neither is female, really.

[Heron TSG]

Masculinity is a personality, too. A gender role, beyond that.

[Truean]

Then the attraction isn't to anything that's actually there, in any meaningful sense. Or at least not anything that has to do with biological gender or "maleness". So-called masculine behavior doesn't have anything to do with genitalia, nor does it really have anything to with being classified or self-identifying as male; it's just a particular set of behavioral patterns.

There's nothing preventing someone that just happens to have female reproductive organs from manifesting those patterns. What about a pre-op FtM, ferex? What about men who are very "feminine," but happened to have all the other behavioral nuances you're looking for?

Point being that it's either the physical aspect that you're fixating on or a set of behavior patterns, because there's no necessary connection between the two. Basically, it's either the cock or it's not the cock; in the case of the former, it's purely physical (and the pre-op MtF would be fine, if everything else was in order, though post-op wouldn't be.), in the latter, not actually anything to do with your intended being male. It's just that it happens that males have tended to express the behavioral patterns you find attractive up to this point. Which is fine either way, really. Most of our species has managed all throughout time to get by with even less of a consideration of an issue than that.

Or at least that's more or less how I see it. I'm mostly attracted to women because I've got a greater aesthetic fondness for the female form than male more than anything else, because both the major behavioral manifestations of so-called "masculine" and "feminine" behavioral patterns just get on my nerves. If a bloke happened to 'ave th'mounds an'cleft o'Venus along with th'wedding tackle and was able to avoid most of the violently annoying cultural artifacts attached to gender, I'd be as attracted to them as I would to a lady. A futa is okay too~

Hell, just the latter half of that qualifier is sufficient, really. Gender is only tangential to that, not integral, though. That's part of the whole "Human before man or woman" thing.

Anyway tl;dr [/ramble] version: Male isn't actually a thing that exists outside the biological. Neither is female, really.

So, two things I've learned here. 1.) I'm becoming even more jaded than I originally thought possible. 2.) It can be both and/or a whole lot of things. No really, I think categorically, but it seems that crap doesn't exactly work? Meh. So personally, it's way more screwed up with my ever so screwed up self for whom I'm attracted to. The math of it all is blinding.

And, if you factor in my immense self loathing, the quadratic formula blows up.

[GlyphGryph]

I'm sorry I took us on this tangent if it's making you feel more jaded. That wasn't my intention. :/

Also, nooo, no self loathing. Bad. Of course I'm also pretty sure I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to communicate there.

And categories WORK, they just don't work PERFECTLY. They are tools we use to model reality and help it make sense, nothing more and nothing less.

[SalmonGod]

Sexuality is just fucked up in general.  This conversation hasn't even gone into the realm of bizarre fetishes.  Even completely uninteresting monogamous hetero sexuality is fucked up, because human sexual anatomy was obviously designed by a troll.  I think it's always going to be screwed up for everyone.