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[Andir]

"fire and brimstone"

(I may have embellished)

[Truean]

In re: the origin of Satan:

Erm.... Actually. The dude does come from the bible. I actually know that book incredibly well, though I really don't follow it or any religion at all anymore. He was originally called Lucifer, the morning star, and he was an angel.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it." Ezekiel 28:15 KJV

Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will. Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness Ezekiel 28:17 KJV

    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the "god of this world". And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 

When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Revelation 12:4-9 (King James Version)

There is no hypocrisy. You can't extend tolerance to someone who worships Satan. I'm not saying any other religion is evil, I'm saying the one that worships the Ruler of Hell is evil.

Clearly your interpretation of Satan is the only possible one.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, the most literal devil's advocate I've ever done:[/u]

Literal Devil's Advocate: I'm not endorsing what I'm saying....
Keep in mind, I defend criminals for a living.... This is all tongue in cheek/I can say anything with a straight face no matter how crazy it is:

Ever read "Paradise Lost?" You should, "Paradise Lost is often considered one of the greatest literary works in the English language" Milton actually wanted to answer the questions of "why do bad things happen to good people," and "why is the universe so incredibly unfair?" He wanted"justify the ways of God to men." Even so, a case can be made that God doesn't make sense with his old testament self.

I've talked to a few satanists/defended them as clients in criminal cases because I get all types: (Again, quite the devil's advocate)
Option A.) Attention Grabbers: Possible the people calling themselves "Satanists," are just in it for attention and don't really care about Satan.

Option B.) Satan as the Underdog: Forgetting for a second why God would even create Satan in the first place, or why he didn't just destroy him at some point.... Why did God make a universe that is both unfair to us and where a lot of the stuff that's bad for us feels good? He didn't have to do that, why did he? "God's not being fair and Satan got shafted for calling him on it." God gives you free will and tells you not to do certain things, but doing those things usually feels/tastes good. Chocolate tastes awesome but its terrible for you. _____ is bad but doing it feels good/we seem driven to do it.... All the rules and rewards seem set in opposition to one another and what "feels good," when God is the one who determined both what the rules are and what we like doing. He also pitted them against one another for no reason. Why are we so driven to violence when that's the basis of a lot of sin? 

Why didn't God make Brocoli taste like Chocolate? Brocoli is awesome for you and doesn't taste all that good, but chocolate tastes awesome yet is terrible for you? Why does he demand absolute faith when if he just showed himself to us, we'd totally worship him? God "loves you," but if you do anything he doesn't like, then eternal damnation in Hell where you're tortured for all time? Doesn't seem like the punishment fits the crime in all cases does it? Think about that, is repeated theft or adultery really worth an eternity of torture in Hell, the worst place in the Universe? Sure, ok, some of the more terrible crimes maybe, but for all time...? Can we even wrap our heads around all eternity and being tortured for all eternity? I think you'd have to do some pretty bad stuff for that level of punishment to be justified.

Then there's why bad things happen to good people. God's all power, all knowing and all caring, so he could totally make our lives better, but he just doesn't? He could use some of that power knowledge and caring to improve things a tad down here.... I mean maybe even something like curing childhood cancer or something, which leads to the question of why he made disease.

This goes into Yossarian in Catch 22, namely chapter 18~
    "And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yossarian continued. … "There's nothing mysterious about it, He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about, a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?" P.179

    "[T]he God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be."Lieutenant Scheisskopf's wife P.180

In other words, it's very complex.

Basically Satanists of this type are just incredibly opposed to Christianity. I don't believe in anything anymore, and just find it all interesting side material to study.

In simple sum, it looks like their whole thing can be summed up as "God is Unfair."
[/Ends far too literal devil's advocate mode]

Regardless of what they believe or don't, they start infringing upon other people's rights and we've got problems, no matter who "they" are, or what "they" believe.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't believe in anything anymore

We believe in nothing Lebowski!

[GlyphGryph]

And there have been many sects throughout history that believed some variant of how the "god" worshipped by the Catholic church, and the bible they hold as their sacred book, was the true devil, the source of all evil - and thus, the being he casts as the bad guy (You know, the one who gave us knowledge, and light, and the urge to explore and create and discover and enjoy) must, therefore, be the being truly deserving of worship.

In essence, they believe YOU, Ggamer, are worshipping the equivalent of Satan, while they have found the truth.

In other words, both of you hold almost exactly the same opinion of the other for the exact same reasons.

And yet, in the end - he's the one most likely tolerate your religion, while you would drive him from a school for what he believes?

WWJD, indeed...

[Truean]

I don't believe in anything anymore

We believe in nothing Lebowski!

I remember that movie. They were interesting foils, mainly to themselves. Was good.

I think I may have just pulled a Balance Seeking "True Neutral" with my last post:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Good, bad, whatever. It isn't Lupus....

[Rose]

Pfft, you guys in your absolute morality.

[ggamer]

And there have been many sects throughout history that believed some variant of how the "god" worshipped by the Catholic church, and the bible they hold as their sacred book, was the true devil, the source of all evil - and thus, the being he casts as the bad guy (You know, the one who gave us knowledge, and light, and the urge to explore and create and discover and enjoy) must, therefore, be the being truly deserving of worship.

In essence, they believe YOU, Ggamer, are worshipping the equivalent of Satan, while they have found the truth.

In other words, both of you hold almost exactly the same opinion of the other for the exact same reasons.

And yet, in the end - he's the one most likely tolerate your religion, while you would drive him from a school for what he believes?

WWJD, indeed...

I'm a little confused on what you mean by "he". If there was a satanist at my school, I would most likely be at odds with him often, but not angry enough to drive him out of our school.

Also, I go to a private school. The entrance by a satanist to my school would imply that he is either trying to provoke response or is just a little bit dim.

[Descan]

The only morality I have that's absolute is "Don't hurt anybody."

Beyond that, it's fair game.

If I missed anything in this, feel free to nitpick.

[Realmfighter]

Also, I go to a private school. The entrance by a satanist to my school would imply that he is either trying to provoke response or is just a little bit dim.

Or it would imply that a child of high school age did not have the authority to tell his parents what to do.

Shocking I know, but it sometimes occurs.

The only morality I have that's absolute is "Don't hurt anybody."

But what if they're going to hurt you and/or would find it enjoyable for you to hurt them?

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW.

[scriver]

If I remember correctly, Satan was never a bad guy in old Jewish tradition (and thus also Early Christian). More like a tool of God, a tempter in His service, than a Lord of Evil. So it's fairly accurate to say that the Devil as the ultimate Big Bad is a medieval custom. Possibly late-Classic, I guess, but that's a matter of years.

[Descan]

Then it's don't hurt anyone against their will. :I Net, not gross, so greater good and all that, wot wot.

[EveryZig]

There are places religious tolerance can't go, and that place is towards the worshiper of the embodiment of all that is wrong in the world.

You know, I hear there is this major deity who is, according to his own followers, literally plotting to destroy the world and slaughter most of its inhabitants. Some of these followers openly admit that they fully support this plan and would do anything in their power to bring it to fruition.



And yes, I know that almost certainty isn't the type of christianity you follow. The point is that the 'same' religious entity can mean very different things to different people.

[HeWhoCannotBeNamed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Human_condition

"The Cathars believed there existed within mankind a spark of divine light. This light, or spirit, had fallen into captivity within a realm of corruption identified with the physical body and world. [...] Spirit, the vital essence of humanity, was thus trapped in a polluted world created by a usurper god and ruled by his corrupt minions."

11th - 13th centuries AD

[alway]

Wiki page on The Church of Satan and The Satanic Bible you may find interesting, ggamer. Those are the more recent variation which vary quite a bit from traditional devil worship, which itself has a wide variety of belief subsets.

On an unrelated and altogether more serious note: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=1&src=tp

[Truean]

Wiki page on The Church of Satan and The Satanic Bible you may find interesting, ggamer. Those are the more recent variation which vary quite a bit from traditional devil worship, which itself has a wide variety of belief subsets.

On an unrelated and altogether more serious note: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=1&src=tp

Yup, I remember that case. American Justice.