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[Heron TSG]

Basically, this means that there is no incentive to work (if you are poor) when you can just live off welfare.

INCENTIVES: Welfare doesn't pay that much. I know, my dad was on it due to his disability from heart disease. There is no way in hell you can live alone, much less with a family, on welfare. It's technically possible on your own, but only if you have some other source of income. Most people prefer to work, anyway.

And the fact that he hasn't done anything and covers it up with some rather skillful rhetoric.

Here, have a dozen things he's done.

1. Healthcare reform.
2. Ended the war in Iraq.
3. Ordered the closing of Guantanamo Bay (Though Congress is dragging its feet.)
4. Allowed stem-cell research, whereas Bush had restricted it.
5. Expanded the Freedom of Information Act.
6. Reversed Bush's decision to withhold funding from international agencies that could provide abortions.
7. Reauthorized the State Children's Healthcare Insurance Program, insuring 4 million kids.
8. Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, a law that expanded upon the previous federal hate-crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. (Not just race!)
9. Refocused NASA to deep-space missions and exploration. To Mars, for one example.
10. Repealed 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.'
11. Stimulus package to save our tanking economy.
12. Repaired our foreign relations.

Want a dozen more? Two dozen?

[ECrownofFire]

Don't forget signing the NDAA and extending the PATRIOT Act

[Euld]

I'd say go ahead, I'm interested.  No, I'm not being sarcastic.

[ECrownofFire]

I'd say go ahead, I'm interested.  No, I'm not being sarcastic.

What The Fuck Has Obama Done So Far?

[Frumple]

If there's something I've missed, please remind me.

I've cut out the rest to save some space.

Here's something really frakking illuminating. It's set for florida, but you can back up a bit and see other states. Neither that income nor welfare is going to keep you alive if shit goes south. As Barb says, there's not many people that actually want to be on welfare. Most people would seriously, seriously rather have work and a livable paycheck. One of the things that homeless and poverty numbers doesn't tell you is that even more millions of people in the US aren't actually getting enough money to genuinely survive. Minimum wage is enough to keep one person going, by themselves, if nothing disastrous occurs.

Also, that John? He doesn't have two jobs. He doesn't have one job. There is no job for John. Also, house? No. Renting a place, maybe. Or, to be more precise, the John you're talking about is seriously bloody lucky, and not representative of what the problem is. He's also, as you note, screwed. And stuff like 5k for medical? Ha, no. Screwed. He won't have a house for very long, he probably won't have kids for very long, unless the bloody heavens smile upon him and grasp him to their bosom.

You want the government to start providing jobs? We're going to need a tax increase. Good luck with that Getting the upper crust to actually pay taxes would help, though.

Also, the job programs the government provides, right now? There's a lot of areas in the US that they don't really do much for, or are saturated. Good bloody luck getting work when there's a few hundred other people applying for the job (And trust, when I say few hundred, I am not frakking kidding. We've been getting literally hundreds of applications to freaking waitress jobs in the area I'm in.). Even more bloody luck if the job's actually going to be able to feed you, never mind if you have family.

Basically, the situation on the ground is worse than you're portraying, and is going to take more than just 'weaning today's culture off welfare.' The majority (absolute, total, majority) of today's culture is completely off wanting to be on welfare. Anyone, and I stress this, that tells you that America has a 'welfare culture' is either seriously g'damn blind or effectively pissing in your face. These people do not want to be where they are, most of the bloody time. They want jobs, they want a living wage, problem is, shit's not there.

Yes, there's exceptions. Yes, there's people abusing the welfare system and trying to coast on it. They are not the majority of people on welfare. Full stop. They're not even a large minority. People who say they are... they're trying to sell you a proverbial bridge.

[Heron TSG]

Hey, that's the site I vaguely remembered and was going to look up to save time.

Don't forget signing the NDAA and extending the PATRIOT Act

Yeah, there are bad parts. The only reasons I'm most likely voting for him this coming year are that there are no Democrats running to replace him and I doubt Jon Huntsman is getting the Republican nomination. My point was that he has done something.

[Pnx]

Obama was a good president, but he could have been better. Perhaps if the liberals had a stronger majority they could rubber stamp their way through a lot of the perfectly decent legislation that conservatives filibustered for no good reason.

[Truean]

In re: Frumple:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If there's something I've missed, please remind me.

I've cut out the rest to save some space.

Here's something really frakking illuminating. It's set for florida, but you can back up a bit and see other states. Neither that income nor welfare is going to keep you alive if shit goes south. As Barb says, there's not many people that actually want to be on welfare. Most people would seriously, seriously rather have work and a livable paycheck. One of the things that homeless and poverty numbers doesn't tell you is that even more millions of people in the US aren't actually getting enough money to genuinely survive. Minimum wage is enough to keep one person going, by themselves, if nothing disastrous occurs.

Also, that John? He doesn't have two jobs. He doesn't have one job. There is no job for John. Also, house? No. Renting a place, maybe. Or, to be more precise, the John you're talking about is seriously bloody lucky, and not representative of what the problem is. He's also, as you note, screwed. And stuff like 5k for medical? Ha, no. Screwed. He won't have a house for very long, he probably won't have kids for very long, unless the bloody heavens smile upon him and grasp him to their bosom.

You want the government to start providing jobs? We're going to need a tax increase. Good luck with that Getting the upper crust to actually pay taxes would help, though.

Also, the job programs the government provides, right now? There's a lot of areas in the US that they don't really do much for, or are saturated. Good bloody luck getting work when there's a few hundred other people applying for the job (And trust, when I say few hundred, I am not frakking kidding. We've been getting literally hundreds of applications to freaking waitress jobs in the area I'm in.). Even more bloody luck if the job's actually going to be able to feed you, never mind if you have family.

Basically, the situation on the ground is worse than you're portraying, and is going to take more than just 'weaning today's culture off welfare.' The majority (absolute, total, majority) of today's culture is completely off wanting to be on welfare. Anyone, and I stress this, that tells you that America has a 'welfare culture' is either seriously g'damn blind or effectively pissing in your face. These people do not want to be where they are, most of the bloody time. They want jobs, they want a living wage, problem is, shit's not there.

Yes, there's exceptions. Yes, there's people abusing the welfare system and trying to coast on it. They are not the majority of people on welfare. Full stop. They're not even a large minority. People who say they are... they're trying to sell you a proverbial bridge.

First of all Frumple, you get a gold star for this and you've saved me a shitload of time by doing so. Thank you.
____________________________________________________________________

In re: GGamer formatting:
GGamer, even forgetting the tag fails.... Man I'm sorry, but your posting style format is making it rather difficult to respond to your points, which often consist of one liners. This is why people are having trouble quoting you. It makes it harder to respond and your one liners aren't as funny as you might think they are.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Take this as an example:

Let's forget the overly pious "Christians" TM forcing their religion on people while pretending to be persecuted, who ask What Would Jesus Do (WWJD) and then openly mock that by going against the poor when that guy was all about helping the poor. (WTF? -5 points, lack of sources. see me after class.)

Imagine you're an outsider looking at this for the first time, can you tell who said what easily? Maybe you can cause you wrote it, but this is a public board. It's difficult to deal with for me too in formatting any reply, because there are lots of things like this. Additionally what are you talking about lacking sources here for? Which part specifically? That Jesus was all for helping the poor or that a lot of Christians TM are hypocritical in calling the poor lazy, not wanting to pay taxes and/or cutting social services? Dude, I've spent time lacing my recent posts concerning you with tons of links and sources.... You're gonna say Jesus wasn't all about helping the poor or that cutting social services to the poor isn't a WWJD thing?

Moreover, none of your replies have sources which is what you're on me about:

As they say, the french are only good at two things: surrenderin', and kissin' (also a joke). And LOL, no, we lost because we rigidly applied the old rules of warfare against an army that couldn't even be called an army. Once more, I suggest The Ugly American, it sums the whole situation up quite well.

You, my good friend, seem to be mixed up. We SHOULDN'T have been there, but some sort of Liberal Angel Squad didn't apply god's wrath upon the UN because we were THERE.

I believe you are referring to Social Security here, which is fundamentally broken.

These aren't substantive answers.

I don't see a single source in any of that and its a far more controversial set of points than "Jesus was all about helping poor people and today we're screwing them over." I'm not sure anyone knows what the heck you're talking about with the "Liberal Angel Squad, [not applying] "god's wrath upon the UN," and how do you expect anyone to respond to that? You're just using soundbites without sources while demanding that I source my material, which I largely have.

I don't know if it's a thing you have with tags or what exactly but really, please try to make your posts a little easier format-wise to respond to.

In re: Work program for the Poor instead of welfare:

C.) THERE IS NO C. LOLNO

Yeah, the reason there is no Option C, whether you like it or not:

You asked if there was something you were missing: Your idea, government work programs, would cost at least $1,015,040,000,000.00/ year in direct wages alone and that doesn't include raw materials, transportation costs, etc. That's even assuming you could effectively use any kind of the labor you'd have to, which would be more difficult than building the great wall of China. yeah, sure some of those 45 or 46 million aren't labor productive adults, which is a whole 'nother problem, but let's say it all washes out given the under-reporting and fact that there are tens of millions of people just barely above the level of food stamps to more than make up for it. That doesn't count manager pay being higher because with millions upon millions, somebody's gonna have to do that too.... Details, details....

([$10/hour] x [2080/hours in a year]) = $20800/year (which is not a great salary at all)
$20,800 x 48,800,000 =$1,015,040,000,000.00 (Yeah I built in about 3 Million extra, because there will be far, far more than that applying). It'd be $952,640,000,000.00 with 45.8 Million.

$10/hour sucks and it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to raise a family of four on that. If you want both mom and dad to work, then you're going to have to provide tons of child care, which is an additional cost. Also, that's just for the labor. Let's talk materials, enough for 45.8 Million people to work with, plus equipment for that many people, plus maintaining and transporting it all. That's just the direct costs. So if you're talking about nearly a $Trillion if you're paying the people shit wages of $10/hour (WITH NO BENEFITS) then you're easily looking at another $trillion or $two trillion when you really add up all the costs. (Buy them each a $10 shovel and we've got $10x 45.8 Million = $458 Million!) We're talking cement for roads, electrical power lines, sewer works, water works, landscaping, dam construction,etc, and a whole shit ton of it plus moving it all around with gas at nearly $4/gallon plus buying equipment to move it all around.

I meant it when I said there was no C. Have you wondered why they haven't done this? Has it crossed your mind that this has already been thought of and that perhaps there was a reason why they haven't done it? Modern day construction projects do not employ Millions and Millions of people. Where once we had dozens and dozens of people, we now have one person on a machine. Additionally, in today's congressional environment, they nearly shut down the government this summer over just keeping what we already have going. There's no way in hell we're going to be able to pass this in congress when we're talking at absolute minimum $2 Trillion and probably more like $3 to employ 45.8 Million people....

Did you ever stop to think about what it would really take to employ tens of millions of people? Dear God, half of them wouldn't even know what to do in what would have to be massive construction projects?

Fact, whether we like it or not, and we don't, tens of millions of people..... We don't know what on earth to do with them.... We can't afford to hire them and what would we hire them to do anyhow?

There is no C.... Unless of course, we can tax the rich to pay for it.... O noes, we can't do that.... They're job creators.... Wait, wouldn't we be ... taxing them... to ... create ... jobs...? Isn't that what they're not doing?

There is no C....

[Il Palazzo]

And LOL, no, we lost because we rigidly applied the old rules of warfare against an army that couldn't even be called an army.

I've just a minor nitpicky question - how was an over 250 000 strong NVA not an army?

[ggamer]

Hey, you remember that time I was smart and witty? Yeah, neither do I. Sorry, i'll start to answer more straightforwardly instead of the half-trolling half-sincerity thing I've been doing up until now.

If there's something I've missed, please remind me.

I've cut out the rest to save some space.

Here's something really frakking illuminating. It's set for florida, but you can back up a bit and see other states. Neither that income nor welfare is going to keep you alive if shit goes south. As Barb says, there's not many people that actually want to be on welfare. Most people would seriously, seriously rather have work and a livable paycheck. One of the things that homeless and poverty numbers doesn't tell you is that even more millions of people in the US aren't actually getting enough money to genuinely survive. Minimum wage is enough to keep one person going, by themselves, if nothing disastrous occurs.

Also, that John? He doesn't have two jobs. He doesn't have one job. There is no job for John. Also, house? No. Renting a place, maybe. Or, to be more precise, the John you're talking about is seriously bloody lucky, and not representative of what the problem is. He's also, as you note, screwed. And stuff like 5k for medical? Ha, no. Screwed. He won't have a house for very long, he probably won't have kids for very long, unless the bloody heavens smile upon him and grasp him to their bosom.

You want the government to start providing jobs? We're going to need a tax increase. Good luck with that Getting the upper crust to actually pay taxes would help, though.

Also, the job programs the government provides, right now? There's a lot of areas in the US that they don't really do much for, or are saturated. Good bloody luck getting work when there's a few hundred other people applying for the job (And trust, when I say few hundred, I am not frakking kidding. We've been getting literally hundreds of applications to freaking waitress jobs in the area I'm in.). Even more bloody luck if the job's actually going to be able to feed you, never mind if you have family.

Basically, the situation on the ground is worse than you're portraying, and is going to take more than just 'weaning today's culture off welfare.' The majority (absolute, total, majority) of today's culture is completely off wanting to be on welfare. Anyone, and I stress this, that tells you that America has a 'welfare culture' is either seriously g'damn blind or effectively pissing in your face. These people do not want to be where they are, most of the bloody time. They want jobs, they want a living wage, problem is, shit's not there.

Yes, there's exceptions. Yes, there's people abusing the welfare system and trying to coast on it. They are not the majority of people on welfare. Full stop. They're not even a large minority. People who say they are... they're trying to sell you a proverbial bridge.

So i'm wrong because America is in deeper shit than I thought it was.

damn. I'll cede Social Services if that's true, probably to someone who isn't a sophmore in high school.

Let's forget the overly pious "Christians" TM forcing their religion on people while pretending to be persecuted, who ask What Would Jesus Do (WWJD) and then openly mock that by going against the poor when that guy was all about helping the poor. (WTF? -5 points, lack of sources. see me after class.)

Imagine you're an outsider looking at this for the first time, can you tell who said what easily? Maybe you can cause you wrote it, but this is a public board. It's difficult to deal with for me too in formatting any reply, because there are lots of things like this. Additionally what are you talking about lacking sources here for? Which part specifically? That Jesus was all for helping the poor or that a lot of Christians TM are hypocritical in calling the poor lazy, not wanting to pay taxes and/or cutting social services? Dude, I've spent time lacing my recent posts concerning you with tons of links and sources.... You're gonna say Jesus wasn't all about helping the poor or that cutting social services to the poor isn't a WWJD thing?

Mainly I was angry about you generalizing christians as Holier-than-thou asshats who think that poors are the devil.

Then, I was angry because the entire point of WWJD is to check one's actions before he fucks up. Like if I wanted to punch you in the face, but then ask "What would jesus do? Jesus would talk out his problems and not get in a fight." The way you put it makes it sound like that phrase is a tool to further hypocrite's goals.

Going even further, you say that we feign being persecuted (Paraphrasing there). Well...

Spoiler: Spoiler'd for tangential rant (click to show/hide)

I'm not a minority. I'm white, live in a working class home. Under what it sounds like you believe, this means that I am free to live my high in the clouds existence, ignoring all minorities while trotting down the street singing Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.

Truean. Are you a Christian? of course not, judging from your posts earlier. Then you don't know what it's LIKE being under that generalization. You know how many people instantly throw out my opinion because I believe in Jesus? That I can be denied from joining a public organization because I'm christian? How many people I've talked to that, as soon as they find out i'm a christian, screams at me that I believe in a false god, and that my views are groundless because I hate minorities, when I don't?

Frankly, you probably don't trust people like me. You see WBC boycotting a church and nod knowingly to the person sitting next to you on the couch. You think of people saying christians are descriminated against and think it's bullshit.

Did you know that Madalyn O'Hair sued NASA for reading ten verses from Genesis during the Apollo 13 mission? This happens all the time. If something Christian (Not religious, mind you. Mainly christian) can be tangentially related to the government, someone sues it?

We do get discriminated against, bro. And we still manage to love the ones perpetrating it all the same.

Moreover, none of your replies have sources which is what you're on me about:

As they say, the french are only good at two things: surrenderin', and kissin' (also a joke). And LOL, no, we lost because we rigidly applied the old rules of warfare against an army that couldn't even be called an army. Once more, I suggest The Ugly American, it sums the whole situation up quite well.

You, my good friend, seem to be mixed up. We SHOULDN'T have been there, but some sort of Liberal Angel Squad didn't apply god's wrath upon the UN because we were THERE.

I believe you are referring to Social Security here, which is fundamentally broken.

These aren't substantive answers.

I don't see a single source in any of that and its a far more controversial set of points than "Jesus was all about helping poor people and today we're screwing them over." I'm not sure anyone knows what the heck you're talking about with the "Liberal Angel Squad, [not applying] "god's wrath upon the UN," and how do you expect anyone to respond to that? You're just using soundbites without sources while demanding that I source my material, which I largely have.

I don't know if it's a thing you have with tags or what exactly but really, please try to make your posts a little easier format-wise to respond to.

RE: Vietnam:

The way you put it, we lost Vietnam the second we arrived, because we arrived. The truth is, we could have won the war if (Is this the third time i've said this?) we would have adapted to the new rules of warfare instead of blundering into vietnam like a bunch of assholes? I made the joke about the french in an attempt at humor, which obviously failed.

RE: Social Security:

I honestly have no clue.

And LOL, no, we lost because we rigidly applied the old rules of warfare against an army that couldn't even be called an army.

I've just a minor nitpicky question - how was an over 250 000 strong NVA not an army?

Because they were all hideously under-trained and under-equipped. By all rights, if we had fought in Europe we would have won ten times over. But all those heavy weapons don't mean shit when you can't use them in the swampy area and ten people from the village you just occupied just killed seven people before blending into the forest.

[kaijyuu]

I think you're mixing up "persecution,"  "discrimination," and "prejudice."  All are distinct.


Prejudice is what you're talking about when referring to those condescending dismissals based on arbitrary crap (like religion).
Discrimination is when you're barred from doing something based on the above prejudice (like holding office, voting, etc).
Persecution is an organized effort to discriminate.


Where the line breaks and stops really applying to christianity is with discrimination. If you find yourself unable to vote, or hold office, or enter an establishment, or have a job due to your religion, then you can argue discrimination. Prior to that, just prejudice and people being jackasses.


And by the way, barring people from doing religious things with public funds (like say, having a nativity funded and placed on public property) is not discrimination. The opposite, in fact.

[Pnx]

RE: Vietnam:

The way you put it, we lost Vietnam the second we arrived, because we arrived. The truth is, we could have won the war if (Is this the third time i've said this?) we would have adapted to the new rules of warfare instead of blundering into vietnam like a bunch of assholes? I made the joke about the french in an attempt at humor, which obviously failed.

...

And LOL, no, we lost because we rigidly applied the old rules of warfare against an army that couldn't even be called an army.

I've just a minor nitpicky question - how was an over 250 000 strong NVA not an army?

Because they were all hideously under-trained and under-equipped. By all rights, if we had fought in Europe we would have won ten times over. But all those heavy weapons don't mean shit when you can't use them in the swampy area and ten people from the village you just occupied just killed seven people before blending into the forest.

It didn't matter if they were untrained. They were well motivated, and the terrain allowed them to dig in, hide, and avoid any kind of attempts to root them out.

I'm honestly interested to see how you'd intend to root a well motivated force with an aptitude for guerilla tactics, that is getting massive loads of supplies from the Russians, and don't say, "Cut the supply lines". Because they tried that, they tried very hard, but when there's thousands of miles of jungle to cover it's not exactly as easy as making a surgical strike.

As for the untrained part, Russia actually did station soldiers there during the war, although they don't seem to have gotten directly involved much, it's pretty safe to assume they gave them some training.

[Truean]

I'm not a minority. I'm white, live in a working class home. Under what it sounds like you believe, this means that I am free to live my high in the clouds existence, ignoring all minorities while trotting down the street singing Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.

Truean. Are you a Christian? of course not, judging from your posts earlier. Then you don't know what it's LIKE being under that generalization. You know how many people instantly throw out my opinion because I believe in Jesus? That I can be denied from joining a public organization because I'm christian? How many people I've talked to that, as soon as they find out i'm a christian, screams at me that I believe in a false god, and that my views are groundless because I hate minorities, when I don't?

Frankly, you probably don't trust people like me. You see WBC boycotting a church and nod knowingly to the person sitting next to you on the couch. You think of people saying christians are descriminated against and think it's bullshit.

Did you know that Madalyn O'Hair sued NASA for reading ten verses from Genesis during the Apollo 13 mission? This happens all the time. If something Christian (Not religious, mind you. Mainly christian) can be tangentially related to the government, someone sues it?

We do get discriminated against, bro. And we still manage to love the ones perpetrating it all the same.

.... You don't know me, and you're failing at guessing anything about me or what I'm saying/thinking. So just save yourself the time, and quit trying. I do find it funny the assumptions you're making about me in a way though, not in a "laughing at them" way more of a "that's odd" way....

A.) I was Christian, wanted to be, except you know, I'm gay/trans, which has lead to me being told I'm both going to Hell (by numerous priests and even a treating psychologist) and a pedophile (nope). It was once seriously suggested that I should kill myself due to this by a deacon. They sorta half shoved/ half shuffled me out for being gay and I'm not happy about it. I thought we all were the Children of God, or something like that... Except apparently not.... While this may not hold true for all Christian denominations in the US, I've found it does for the vast majority (see, their political candidates).

B.) I said absolutely nothing about you "hating minorities," though you've accused me of calling people racists unjustly twice now. Both times that wasn't the case. Also, Apparently you're unaware of what "ChristianTM" means? That's a specific subset rather than a generalization. It refers specifically to those Christians who are "holier than thou" rather than saying that they all are.... You know, kinda like Rick Perry and Santorum.... Given that and lots of other things I'm not even going to mention here, you're telling me that I don't know what it's like to be generalized/discriminated against? Holy shit you wanna talk about people throwing out your opinions because of something? Wow, people won't hire a gay lawyer even though I'm very effective and cheaper than most others around. Moreover I've lost countless friends once they figured out I'm gay.... The Christian Churches don't seem to like the gays here.

C.) In re Laws/Lawsuits over religious speech things: Dude, I'm an attorney, and I've commented extensively about freedom of speech/religion here before, so no.... http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=85981.msg2697504#msg2697504 To the point where I could write a book.... I've also litigated on point. I don't know what you've been told, but no.... That's not discrimination that's making one religion stop forcing itself into the public space. There is separation of Church and State. Just because they can't throw religion into EVERYTHING, like they are far too used to doing, doesn't make it discrimination.

D.)

Sorry, i'll start to answer more straightforwardly instead of the half-trolling half-sincerity thing I've been doing up until now.

Yeah, I kinda figured.... It'd be a start.... While you're at it, try not to say I'm overgeneralizing/calling people bigoted for no reason, please? If you want to have an honest conversation, then fine, otherwise....

E.) Look, I actually came from a fundamentalist Christian home. I know what it's like to have people telling you the world is one way and only one way. It's really hard to open your mind up, because all those things you've been told pop up in your head. You've admitted you're not being open minded here. If you wanna try that, I'll honestly give it a shot, but if you're going to 1337 speak, troll and give soundbite answers, then how do you think that's gonna end up man?

I've been in a place that's probably quite similar to where you are, probably much worse given the amount of abuse my parents doled out. Again, invitation to an honest conversation is extended, but you're going to have to try and be open minded....

[EveryZig]

You know how many people instantly throw out my opinion because I believe in Jesus? That I can be denied from joining a public organization because I'm christian? How many people I've talked to that, as soon as they find out i'm a christian, screams at me that I believe in a false god, and that my views are groundless because I hate minorities, when I don't?

Where do you live? Iran? In the U.S., few places actually have enough non-christians to do any oppressing at all. (Discrimination against christians is certainly a legitimate issue in some countries, but the rest of this post is focused on the U.S.) What specific organizations can you be excluded from just for being Christian (aside from instances where it directly interferes with the job, such as a creationist trying to become a biology teacher)?
How many people have you talked to that scream at you in public for being a christian? The percentage of people total who are public about being non-christian is fairly small to begin with, even factoring out the special kind of crazy needed to scream about such things in public. (You are not counting internet rants, right? You can find people on the internet who will scream about anything, so it has to be both major and recurring to be more than the internet's craziness baseline.)
I find these claims to be completely different from both my personal experience and the statistics I am aware of. (For example, an evangelist was recently preaching out on a box on campus. Despite literally being a fundamentalist preacher on a college campus, he was not booed or shouted at, and while people challenged his views when he was answering questions afterwards, I never saw anybody being hostile towards him.)

You think of people saying christians are descriminated against and think it's bullshit.

As well as the factors mentioned above, you have the influence of Fox News to thank for that. They often go on about things like the 'war on christmas', which is indeed a bullshit claim of persecution. They claim about things like people saying 'Happy Hollidays' instead of 'Merry Christmass'.

Did you know that Madalyn O'Hair sued NASA for reading ten verses from Genesis during the Apollo 13 mission? This happens all the time. If something Christian (Not religious, mind you. Mainly christian) can be tangentially related to the government, someone sues it?

We do get discriminated against, bro. And we still manage to love the ones perpetrating it all the same

It is 'mainly christian' involvement in government that people get irritated about because christianity is just about the only religion that gets involved in U.S. politics. This is not because christianity is worse than other religions in that regard, it is simply because christianity is by far the majority religion. When it is by far the most common thing around, of course it is confronted the most often.

[Heron TSG]

damn. I'll cede Social Services if that's true, probably to someone who isn't a sophomore in high school.

I was also arguing on that. Will you cede the point to a sophomore in college?

Frankly, you probably don't trust people like me. You see WBC boycotting a church and nod knowingly to the person sitting next to you on the couch. You think of people saying christians are descriminated against and think it's bullshit.

Westboro Baptist Church is not the standard form of Christianity. If it were, there would be a lot fewer Christians, because you aren't all extremists. Nobody else agrees with them, but our government has ruled that they are free to speak as they will, so long as nobody gets hurt. I wouldn't call that persecution.