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[Pnx]

...Aren't they synonyms? I'm failing to see the difference here.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Capacity is something you have but haven't exploited. Potential is something you could have but haven't exploited.

A baby does not have the potential to grow into an adult, it has the capacity to. A fetus does not have the capacity to grow into a baby, it has the potential to.

[Frumple]

There is a very important difference between capacity and potential.

You're going to have to clarify instead of state that. If there's a difference beyond semantic, I haven't noticed one. E: Which you do... I guess.

Capacity is something you have but haven't exploited. Potential is something you could have but haven't exploited.

A baby does not have the potential to grow into an adult, it has the capacity to. A fetus does not have the capacity to grow into a baby, it has the potential to.

Can you draw this out some more? Also, at what point does it shift from potential to capacity?

So the conclusion is that there isn't really a good reason for babies to be considered better than animals? Or do I have to strike baby-back ribs off the menu?

Nah, the conclusion is that the argument from potential is terribly flawed

I haven't personally seen an argument for human uniqueness (i.e. reason to value us over other creatures that isn't entirely selfish) that doesn't break down under logical scrutiny, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[scriver]

Even by your own semantics, there is no difference in capacity or potential between fetus->baby and baby->adult, MSH.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Even by your own semantics, there is no difference in capacity or potential between fetus->baby and baby->adult, MSH.

Yes there is, as I already explained. A fetus, up to a certain point, lacks a brain. It has the potential to grow one, but it does not have the mental capacity that comes with it until said potential is fulfilled.

[Pnx]

But a brain has stages of development, it isn't automatically a fully adult brain.

[scriver]

Unfortunately, a baby does not have an adult's brain. It has the potential to grow one, but does not have the mental capacity that comes with it untill said potential is fulfilled.

[SalmonGod]

They lack some of an adult's higher functions and operate under a severe lack of informed context, but don't they also have drastically higher learning ability than even most adults?  Certainly greater than the learning ability of a dog or pig.  A newborn just hasn't had the time yet to make use of it.

Not saying anyone's wrong here.  I've already outlined my stance.  I just want to see how this factors in.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But it does have a human brain nonetheless, and that is why a baby is a person and a fetus isn't.

[SalmonGod]

But it does have a human brain nonetheless, and that is why a baby is a person and a fetus isn't.

I still find this a mostly useless idea, since you're then tasked with defining the point in fetal development at which it can be considered to have a developed enough brain to be considered human, and whether that development happens consistently enough within that predicted time frame in a large enough majority of pregnancies to be considered useful.

The same style of criticism can be leveled at Pnx's arguments as well.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I still find this a mostly useless idea, since you're then tasked with defining the point in fetal development at which it can be considered to have a developed enough brain to be considered human, and whether that development happens consistently enough within that predicted time frame in a large enough majority of pregnancies to be considered useful.

Using the end of the first trimester as a benchmark has been an accepted measure for a long time, and one I don't see any reason to change. Three months is plenty of time to get an abortion done, or rather that it would be if not for the constant state-level measures to make it as difficult and emotionally scarring experience as possible.

[Pnx]

But it does have a human brain nonetheless, and that is why a baby is a person and a fetus isn't.

So as long as it's a human brain, and not an animal brain, it's a person. Because humans are humans, and animals are animals.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But it does have a human brain nonetheless, and that is why a baby is a person and a fetus isn't.

So as long as it's a human brain, and not an animal brain, it's a person. Because humans are humans, and animals are animals.

Yeah, pretty much. You don't see animals building skyscrapers, so it's not exactly subjective to say that we're kind of the odd species out when it comes to mentality.

[SalmonGod]

Using the end of the first trimester as a benchmark has been an accepted measure for a long time, and one I don't see any reason to change.

I should do a little research on why this benchmark is accepted, because the fact that it's accepted doesn't do anything for me.

[Pnx]

But it does have a human brain nonetheless, and that is why a baby is a person and a fetus isn't.

So as long as it's a human brain, and not an animal brain, it's a person. Because humans are humans, and animals are animals.

Yeah, pretty much. You don't see animals building skyscrapers, so it's not exactly subjective to say that we're kind of the odd species out when it comes to mentality.

You do realize, "it's moral because we are human and we say so" isn't actually a valid argument?

...

Sometimes I really wonder if you're not just a troll.