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[Descan]

That example would make sense if EVERYONE in that city refused to pay the fire department and then expected them to put out a blaze.

It was one, or two people. Statistical anomalies. Most of the people in that city paid, yes?

An artist doesn't need everyone who gets enjoyment from their work to pay for them to live, just enough.

[Truean]

That example would make sense if EVERYONE in that city refused to pay the fire department and then expected them to put out a blaze.

It was one, or two people. Statistical anomalies. Most of the people in that city paid, yes?

An artist doesn't need everyone who gets enjoyment from their work to pay for them to live, just enough.

"They also say the number of fire subscriptions have gone up considerably in the past year, possibly due to the incident involving the Cranick's that gained response from around the world. "

Seems the problem was, everyone thought that way until the city actually showed them that, no, they can't do this for free and they won't. They will show up to the house fire to protect those subscribers on either side of you so their house doesn't burn, but otherwise....

It took someone's house burning down for them to get it. Cause hey, doesn't matter right. Doesn't apply to me. "Other people can pay...." ~Everyone. People are spoiled and no rules apply to them....

This seems especially true if they are rich because "I earned it." .... And due to that, you can afford to pay for things, like an adult....

[Darvi]

Iow, I was actually right for once? Welp, once in a lifetime.

[Frumple]

And, in come the Conservative Religious Police in America....

My first thought is... doesn't this guy know the reason the actual founders (I.e. the first Europeans to come over here) came over because they were basically too much of a collective asshole for even the Europeans to deal with? Iirc, the protestants were kicked out largely because they had a stick so far up their ass even the catholics went, 'Yeah, okay, you're an ass. Screw off.'

Also,

Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our
Constitution as a whale goes through a net.

I can't help but want to burst the fook out laughing at that line being in a document written either by or on the behalf of the folks with the highest material wealth in the country.

In 1962, the Court banned prayer from public schools.

Bullshit. It banned mandatory prayer, by a public institution. Which is unconstitutional. Personal prayer was not and never has been banned.
 

In 1963, the Court found that reading the Bible in public schools was
unconstitutional.

State-mandated Bible reading you misquoting monkeyhumper! Augh!

That was just the stuff I knew was off, off the top of my head. What the hell ever happened to 'thou shalt not lie'? Is the Christian elite only taking that in the soft form of 'you will not speak direct dishonesty' and letting misdirection and half-truths be okay, now? Poor other Christians, their leaders are free to screw them over, if that's the case.

Does this mean I could morally tell a person who's got two weeks to live they're 'fine' if they're breathing right at that moment, though? That'd make getting paid for doing medical work a lot easier! *To person with critical pneumonia* "Oh, you're fine (implied: At this moment. Not so much in a few hours, but hey.). Now give me $50 for the visit."

[Vector]

See, this is what I'm really trying to say:

I think the distribution model I'm suggesting will make it a hell of a lot harder for the big guys to exploit others, and people who aren't being exploited all the time have a hell of a lot harder time saying "I'll just steal it, because it's not like the artist was getting any money from this anyway, and I hate big business!  They're just exploiting me and my friends and giving absolutely nothing back!"

This is, so far as I understand it, the usual rationale.

They'll have to say: "So, how do I feel about stealing from Akira Toriyama and never giving him a penny for his effort, this guy who regularly thanks me as a fan for support, answered my friend's letter very graciously, supports a wife and son, works absolutely brutal hours, inspires other artists I like a lot, and has provided me with a new chapter of his fun and carefully-drawn story every week for the past five years?" or any other artist you might care to name.

(Hell, I actually think that many translations would be better and more professional if they were left up to the fans.  The fans already know there's a market, they nominally translate for free, and they're absolutely obsessed with faithfulness to the source material [hence no shitty problems with, say, censoring]--plus, subtitles are usually better-timed and more imaginatively arranged)

I buy almost nothing new, and even fewer things at fully-priced release.  But if I were able to get most of my shitty old books for the price of the paper they're printed on, plus a little fee to any annotator who worked on the project, I'd be much happier about buying them hot off the press.  There's absolutely no reason why a standard reprint of Pride and Prejudice should cost 8 dollars new, with nothing added by anyone (except a bow to my difficulty reading things off of screens).  I can't pay Jane Austen for it, and I don't feel at all beholden to her estate for what was her work.


As far as the fire-fighting thing goes, all I'm going to say is "well, they learned."  The attitude is bad right now, but I sure as heck don't think it's something that can't be unlearned--and we are going to enter a transition period, so I'm angling for an atmosphere that takes advantage of the biggest "negatives" in our distribution model.

[ChairmanPoo]

I said it back then, and repeat it now: Did this family fail to pay the firemen fee out of ideological principles, or out of poverty?

[MonkeyHead]

All of which makes a point float into my mind. Its not actually the artist we are paying more often than not when exchanging coin for exposure to art - its a fee we pay to the distributors, be they a film studio, music label, whatever. More often than not the artist is paid upfront by "the studio", and how successful the film is or whatever doesnt change how much they make from it apart from in odd cases (e.g. Star Wars and George Lucas). If I chose to pirate a Simpsons DVD, it is Fox who would be losing out, not really Matt Groening. It could be argued that piracy is a result of companies restricting acess to artists for capitalistic gains.

[Darvi]

I said it back then, and repeat it now: Did this family fail to pay the firemen fee out of ideological principles, or out of poverty?

I think it's less that this specific family didn't pay, but rather the entire community failed to do so. And I doubt that every-single-body were too piss-poor to pay.

[MonkeyHead]

Yea, but that sort of thing is viral - "If you arent paying, then neither are we/why should we?"

[Darvi]

Because "normal" people don't like burnt down houses.

[Vector]

All of which makes a point float into my mind. Its not actually the artist we are paying more often than not when exchanging coin for exposure to art - its a fee we pay to the distributors, be they a film studio, music label, whatever. More often than not the artist is paid upfront by "the studio", and how successful the film is or whatever doesnt change how much they make from it apart from in odd cases (e.g. Star Wars and George Lucas). If I chose to pirate a Simpsons DVD, it is Fox who would be losing out, not really Matt Groening. It could be argued that piracy is a result of companies restricting acess to artists for capitalistic gains.

Exactly.  So extremely, incredibly much this.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens.  I think the new market model could be incredibly good for all of us.  Eliminate the middle man and spread better art everywhere.

[Truean]

Because "normal" people don't like burnt down houses.

Yea, but that sort of thing is viral - "If you arent paying, then neither are we/why should we?"

Darvi is making too much sense, which is why MonkeyHead is right concerning how the public will act. As for Mr Cranick, "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong," said Gene Cranick. He is specifically on record  as saying that he thought they would do it anyhow. "When I called I told them that. My grandson had already called there and he thought that when I got here I could get something done, I couldn't," Paulette Cranick.
....

All of which makes a point float into my mind. Its not actually the artist we are paying more often than not when exchanging coin for exposure to art - its a fee we pay to the distributors, be they a film studio, music label, whatever. More often than not the artist is paid upfront by "the studio", and how successful the film is or whatever doesnt change how much they make from it apart from in odd cases (e.g. Star Wars and George Lucas). If I chose to pirate a Simpsons DVD, it is Fox who would be losing out, not really Matt Groening. It could be argued that piracy is a result of companies restricting acess to artists for capitalistic gains.

Exactly.  So extremely, incredibly much this.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens.  I think the new market model could be incredibly good for all of us.  Eliminate the middle man and spread better art everywhere.

On the middle man:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

See, it depends on what the middle man actually does for his cut. Like I said, I get 10% as an agent's fee. I handle all sorts of things for them and am essentially a business manager. I get them performing at clubs and venues, various fairs, charity dinners, weddings, and when it was applicable a high school dance or three (one of them is a rock... ish band). They didn't really know these people/ have ideas on how to get in. The average gig paid $1000 for a small night gig, of which I got $100 gross (before my expenses like driving out to said place to actually see it cause you can't trust it to be what people say it is.). Let's not forget all the accounting involved, which I directly do. I also incorporated them with the State as a Limited Liability Corporation for tax reasons etc. The paperwork is endless. There's a website to manage (which I delegate cause meh) as well as various publicity. Live bands aint what they used to be....

Additionally, you'd be surprised how many people try to not pay the band even after they've played. Why yes, I am an attorney and yes I will sue you for breach of contract. <-- that threat alone is very persuasive and usually leads to them not trying to weasel out of it. Also you promised them food and they didn't get it, next time they're going to get a full tray. See how this allows the band to be portrayed as nice because I play bad cop...?

Summation: As long as that person is focusing on the business so the artist can spend all their time playing or um, .... artist...ing, then it's cool. I will fully admit there are a lot of leaches out there as *cough* agents *cough*. I protect my bands like I protect all my clients. This is good. Some people don't. This is bad and they need to go.

There's also no reason we couldn't just have smaller model companies supporting the artists and providing real services to them.... Though I will again, fully admit that the danger of corruption exists. My bands are actually sick of me giving them full accounting statements for every damn penny and don't want to be bothered with it. It's nice that they trust me. I will never abuse that, because other people will.

[Vector]

Right, I think that there is going to continue to be a market for high-quality, small-model local printing presses or distro websites, but I think that a lot of the big distribution people are going to start being pushed out for their rampant scalping and inefficiency.

There's obviously a place for high-quality assistants in the world.  There just isn't room for fat cats who want to eat everything and expect the mice to sit still and be eaten.

[Pnx]

If I ever do fulfill that dream of eventually getting off my arse and writing a book, remind me to consult with you on the publishing contract.

[Truean]

[nods]

[side rant]
Though I have discovered a problem. In addition to the god aweful (so bad it has an extra "e" in it and can't even be spelled right) garage bands I listen to and then tune out for my own sanity delusion of sanity, I don't get the entire rap thing. I mean none of it, at all. I avoid it. I'm pretty sure I have to refer them to someone who freaking does get this musical area and that said person is a crook. Don't know the music, don't know how to market it, don't know the venues. Can't help you. Like really, I got no clue. Though I do still know how to sue the shit out those not a-payin'-you, I got nothin' on the marketing side. [/side rant]

If I ever do fulfill that dream of eventually getting off my arse and writing a book, remind me to consult with you on the publishing contract.

I overwhelmingly don't take cases off the net for numerous reasons. Stranger things have happened though. I appreciate the thought all the same.