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[MonkeyHead]

Consider the prospect of being sent to prison a punishment for not fulfiling the debt you have to society.

Consider the fact that I am not in prison a sign that I have been fulfiling the debt to those service providers.

Which then forces me to conclude that I do have debts, I just happen to be paying them. Is that what was meant? I had taken all this to imply that I had some further obligation beyond my taxes.

Well, I assume you do choose to obey the laws of your particulr nation in other ways, conforming in some way to the accepted norms of behavour out of some moral obligation to whatever model of society you choose to belong, as opposed to going around shooting people or suchlike as after all, you owe them all nothing, right? If you have children, I assume you will instruct them in how to be productive individuals rather than a drain on your nation. I geuss we have differing interpretations about waht a debt to society actually is, and how one goes about living up to such debt.

[scriver]

One thing I've reflected on is that the pay for a copy method is actually pretty silly as a way to produce artwork (and hush about the games are art thing, as a commodity they're art).

When you buy a CD, you're not paying for the copies - you're buying a license to use the music (for personal use). This is why it's not illegal to download a CD you have, you already own said license and the individual copies of the files doesn't matter.

[GlyphGryph]

Scriver, it is actually illegal to do that in the US.

[Nadaka]

Theft has always been a recognized aspect of human behavior, but the internet has provided for it to be simple and nearly undetectable.

And, I should emphasize, piracy is not theft and has jack-all to do with it.

I really hate that conflation.

Piracy is completely theft and is directly related to how anonymity, ease, and peer-pressure are known to loosen an individual's moral standards on things like theft.

Copyright is completely theft of culture from all of society and is directly related to how power graft bribery and corruption are known to loosen an individuals moral standards on things like theft.

Theft means the owner is deprived of his property. Copyright infringement does no such thing.

Copyright deprives society of its property (art and culture). It was originally intended to do so only on the following conditions: 1: this is in order to promote the creation of science and art. 2: this is for a limited time. Both those conditions are now being violated by copyright law and have destroyed the spirit in which they were founded.

Beyond that you committing one of the worst crimes in my system of beliefs. You are waging war against the human mind. By corrupting the meaning of words you are impoverishing language. Language is the basis of human thought. By conflating copyright infringement, theft and the act of capturing ships cargo and hostages on the high seas you are making it harder for people to think clearly on the topic. And that causes mass harm to the thing that I hold most precious, the human mind.

[Fenrir]

This is rather like “If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?” You both know exactly how piracy works, and you both know how coporeal theft works. So, you are really debating the definition of the word “theft” — or, more likely, you are really debating the implications the word “theft” carries. I suspect this conversation is mostly about how evil piracy is compared to theft — less, or about the same? I am, of course, guessing.

Well, I assume you do choose to obey the laws of your particulr nation in other ways, conforming in some way to the accepted norms of behavour out of some moral obligation to whatever model of society you choose to belong, as opposed to going around shooting people or suchlike as after all, you owe them all nothing, right? If you have children, I assume you will instruct them in how to be productive individuals rather than a drain on your nation. I geuss we have differing interpretations about waht a debt to society actually is, and how one goes about living up to such debt.

Would I instruct them to be productive for the nation or for themselves? I am not sure — I think perhaps I have said very much without understanding the topic correctly. I am tempted to say that it does not much matter, as I shall not behave differently whichever way this goes, but I would not like to give the impression that I would refuse to acknowledge when I have been wrong.

[G-Flex]

I never said that I never benefitted. I said that I do not owe them anything. I benefit from the grocery store down the street, but, so soon as I pay in full, I consider my debts cleared. The store also benefits from me in this exchange.

Not everything in society is so directly transactional. There are a lot of abstract and assumed benefits of society that you don't directly pay money in exchange for.

[Bauglir]

For instance, I derive great peace of mind from knowing that I have sufficient money in the bank to travel to the grocery store and purchase food whenever I want. This provides me with a great reduction in stress, but it arises from circumstances heavily dependent on society's continued functioning, and I'm only paying for the money itself through labor and the groceries themselves through money. That money is a thing that exists is something I've never paid for, nor is the existence of the concept of a grocery store. I'm just kind of cruising along on other people's great ideas there.

This might not be quite the example G-Flex had in mind, but I feel like it's probably relevant. Even if you argue that psychological benefits are actually part of the transactions but are just not explicit, I think those last two sentences in that paragraph are relevant.

[Fenrir]

Curses, it seems I must dejectedly accede. Damn you, society, and all your sneaky benefits. Damn you.

[MonkeyHead]

Yea, pervasive beast isnt it?

[GlyphGryph]

Mind you, that society has done a lot and continues to do a lot for you doesn't really, in and of itself, imply that you "owe" society anything at all.

But then, I don't think children "owe" their parents anything either.

[Bauglir]

It's why I plan to move to the Moon. And then destroy society with a giant laser be-

Wait. Shit. Somebody else in society invented lasers already. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

[G-Flex]

Mind you, that society has done a lot and continues to do a lot for you doesn't really, in and of itself, imply that you "owe" society anything at all.

But then, I don't think children "owe" their parents anything either.

It is, however, a good argument against the super-capitalistic notion that anything you can accrue for yourself at the cost of anyone else is deserved and you should never have to ever give any of it back, e.g. through paying taxes on earnings. You know, the "I earned my money, why should I be paying to feed poor people" types.

[Truean]

[sigh]

The problem is the attitude, "I want to get everything and pay for nothing with no sacrifice while being paid as much as possible!" ~ Everyone. It really is what's killing us. If people wouldn't listen to ignore 30 seconds of commercial for about 30 minutes of entertainment (some songs are longer than others), then we really are screwed. If it's basically that people just won't have the slightest sacrifice (not money) for a song, because it's "better pirated," then O well. Yeah, the record companies overdid it, enormously so, but to pay them nothing is the other extreme and just as bad. They are going to have to realize that technology WILL change their business model and we are going to have to deal with an imperfect world that imposes some cost on us for music service: in commercials or currency.

Same with every aspect of society. "I don't wanna pay for [anything]," is killing the US. I don't care if people don't feel like paying for things; no one does. In the real world, you never get something for nothing. Things do not appear out of thin air and at some point, things fall apart unless supported with something. Said price should be reasonable, of course. 30 seconds of ignoring a commercial for 30 minutes of entertainment. If people don't want either that or to pay for it with cash, then whatever....

This to me is like people complaining about being asked to "Press two for Spanish." You're being asked to press a button.... Actually you're being asked not to press a button, because you probably want to continue in English. Such strain on you.... [Facepalm].

[Society]

This is basically all the individuals who work without us noticing them so we don't have to (either notice them or do their jobs). At some point, I think we all owe society something because society owes us something. If we don't maintain society, it falls apart and we end up drinking our own shit, quite literally:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-14/u-s-sues-chicago-area-water-management-agency-for-pollution.html
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/26/us_cities_struggle_to_control_sewer_overflows/

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

I am an awful materialist so I live in a room covered in books, cds and vinyl.

I will probably never be a magical monk and punch through tanks now :<

[GlyphGryph]

Same with every aspect of society. "I don't wanna pay for [anything]," is killing the US. I don't care if people don't feel like paying for things; no one does. In the real world, you never get something for nothing. Things do not appear out of thin air and at some point, things fall apart unless supported with something.

Except, of course, that most of the media I consume and enjoy doesn't, actually, cost me anything dollar amount wise - and not because I steal it! The contributions you make here, the forum games thread, the conversations with friends, etc. and so on.

It might be not so much that people don't want to pay for this stuff, but rather that the opportunity cost isn't worth it unless it's free.

After all, you may not be getting any of it, but I'm "paying" for a show I pirate off the internet - I'm losing an amount of time from my life equal to the length of the show. There are shows you would literally need to pay me to watch, because the opportunity cost of watching that show is so high, BEFORE I spend a single cent on it.

We live in an era of abundant, collaborative, shared media, and to a large extent we always have. The cost of a digital good is independent of scarcity - they are infinitely abundant once created. Thus, they can only derive their worth in comparison to other similar goods.

The biggest obstacle to your song or book or game succeeding, and to you getting compensated for it, isn't pirates and it never has been - its the fact that we can get things of equivalent or greater value for a lot less, because so many people are churning out content and asking nothing in return (in many ways fulfilling their obligation to society you so adore!)

It is not pirates that are killing the music and movie and game industries.

It's kindness.