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[GlyphGryph]

Any attempt to alter the file leads to its immediate deletion. Crack solved. Possible other penalties could be IP banning from download sites based upon a notice the file would send upon said deletion. Rig the damn thing to explode.

Truean, man, I usually support you, but right now you're reminding me a lot of politicians who insist on having REALLY strong opinions on things technology related without really knowing anything about technology.

The stuff your describing is, at best, science fiction (and currently impossible). More likely, it's science fantasy (and will never be possible, at least not the way you've described it). If it were possible, you'd likely have to had sealed, dedicated, hardware at every stage of the process good for nothing but this, and then you'd STILL get people removing the ads by recording the playback and redistributing.

And while I too bemoan the fact that so many people see content on the internet as worth nothing, I don't even see how your solution would help - it would only mean people wouldn't have used Napster.

And remember that there a great many people surviving by distribution work on the internet, and the "entertainment should be free" mentality started with the advent of television, not the net - when people became accustomed to being the product instead of the purchaser, with entertainment the compensation for selling their eyeballs, their views of how much things are worth became incredibly warped.

[Nadaka]

Also, yeah, prisons do not really have "slave labor"; the prisoners vounteer for these work details and they are 'compensated' something like $0.05 a day or whatever. They have to earn the right to do these details as well. They also only work on public projects, public lands.

Ah, no. This is absolutely factually incorrect. A rapidly growing number of US prisoners ARE working as slave labor in private prison factories.

[Tellemurius]

Also, yeah, prisons do not really have "slave labor"; the prisoners vounteer for these work details and they are 'compensated' something like $0.05 a day or whatever. They have to earn the right to do these details as well. They also only work on public projects, public lands.

Ah, no. This is absolutely factually incorrect. A rapidly growing number of US prisoners ARE working as slave labor in private prison factories.

I dunno about that, is it really slave labor considering how much it costs to maintain them in a cell? I been hearing stories about school supervisors wanting to change a school to a jail due to more funding per head.

[GlyphGryph]

Yes, it is still slave labour regardless of how much it costs to keep them there.

Next you'll be arguing "was what the south did with those black people REALLY slave labour, what with how much it cost to bring them over to america and feed and house them?"
(Note that this was a REAL argument - are you seriously saying it was a good one?)
Also, it may be expensive, but I'd be willing to bet these private prisons get the state to pay for that stuff and pocket the money from the labour - essentially, that they are profiting from the slave labour and making the rest of us pay the associated costs.

It's completely irrelevant to whether or not it is slave labour. You can certainly argue it, but not like that.

[Fenrir]

All societies treat people as long-term investments. People are raised, at high cost, for a couple decades or more (in the modern day), in order to become productive members of society. An individual has an obligation to society not only because of this (society bringing them up), but also because society continuously supports those people in a number of ways, what with no man being an island and all.

Society did not raise me. My parents raised me. They did indeed make use of society’s bountiful resources, but they paid for all of the resources I consumed, and they paid for all of the resources they consumed. I consider myself to owe society nothing.

[Willfor]

All societies treat people as long-term investments. People are raised, at high cost, for a couple decades or more (in the modern day), in order to become productive members of society. An individual has an obligation to society not only because of this (society bringing them up), but also because society continuously supports those people in a number of ways, what with no man being an island and all.

Society did not raise me. My parents raised me. They did indeed make use of society’s bountiful resources, but they paid for all of the resources I consumed, and they paid for all of the resources they consumed. I consider myself to owe society nothing.

Did you pay them for all of the resources you consumed?

[MonkeyHead]

Consider that premise should you ever need the Police, Fire service, emergency medical care, use the transport network, take advantage of any educational institutions or generally dont get stabbed going to the local convenice shop.

Or, alternatively, realise that your parents form part of the society that make up the state/nation that you live in.

[Truean]

Any attempt to alter the file leads to its immediate deletion. Crack solved. Possible other penalties could be IP banning from download sites based upon a notice the file would send upon said deletion. Rig the damn thing to explode.

Truean, man, I usually support you, but right now you're reminding me a lot of politicians who insist on having REALLY strong opinions on things technology related without really knowing anything about technology.

The stuff your describing is, at best, science fiction (and currently impossible). More likely, it's science fantasy (and will never be possible, at least not the way you've described it). If it were possible, you'd likely have to had sealed, dedicated, hardware at every stage of the process good for nothing but this, and then you'd STILL get people removing the ads by recording the playback and redistributing.

And while I too bemoan the fact that so many people see content on the internet as worth nothing, I don't even see how your solution would help - it would only mean people wouldn't have used Napster.

And remember that there a great many people surviving by distribution work on the internet, and the "entertainment should be free" mentality started with the advent of television, not the net - when people became accustomed to being the product instead of the purchaser, with entertainment the compensation for selling their eyeballs, their views of how much things are worth became incredibly warped.

So your argument is basically that a.) its technologically impossible to have a file that deletes itself if you try to alter it, b.) even if it wasn't people would "tape stuff off the radio" or something as an end run, and c.) something about "entertainment should be free," coming from TV...?

First, if you only end up being able to fit 15,000 songs on your ipod, because the files are bigger instead of 20,000 to accommodate the self deletion code, then I'm not seeing a problem. There is a standard, sure, and this becomes it. Second, the record companies are going to keep being massive thorns in everyone's side until and unless we get some sort of sustainable system to make sure people somehow get compensated. Third, key difference and exactly what I'm saying between TV and Net: commercials. <--- This is exactly what I'm advocating. It doesn't have to be perfect, TV wasn't. People change the channel or leave during the commercials, or fast forward over them if they record things. Not the point. The point is advertiser keeps paying regardless and thus the actors got paid along with everyone else in the business....

If you just give people all the music they want and let them own it as long as there's like... a little blerb in there by Pepsi (especially if Coke can't have one), they'll do it. All the stuff you're talking about with cracking codes and shit takes one thing the American Public is completely unwilling to give: effort. You appeal directly to people's laziness. Why the hell would you bother breaking code or even taping/recording/whatevering, it yourself when someone's already done it for you and the only cost is like 5 seconds of a Pepsi commercial?
You can play it anywhere, on your smart phone thing, or your IPOD, or your computer. You just have to listen to a couple seconds of whatever Pepsi wants to say.... Easy appeals to the lazy....

Summation, It could be done. You remove the need/desire to break the system, because it's easier/cheaper/less work to just follow it. You make the other "end run" methods annoying/uncool by comparison, "Dude, you recorded it yourself, what are you too fucking good to listen to 4 seconds of an ad?" People could record/tape over/fast forward/ignore commercials before on TV.... Didn't stop anything....

People still listen to the damn Radio.... They put up with several minutes of commercials and a play list they can't really control. You're telling me the ability to legally make your own custom play lists for all your electronic toys with literally freaking 4 seconds of commercials per song is just completely not gonna be accepted? Because people are going to put so much effort into even caring about that 4 seconds.

1 1000, 2 1000, 3 1000, 4 1000: the message randomly rotates when assigned to a song so it doesn't get boring.

Possibility 1: "Pepsi, for those who think young." [You listen to your entire song]
Possibility 2: "Pepsi, always refreshing." [You listen to your entire song]
Etc, etc.

If a Radio station did this with their playlist (which you can't control or own like this one) they'd be freaking awesome....

Some societies imploded internally because of slavery and totalitarianism. The economy of Rome was destroyed by slavery, for example. Not because the proles drank too much or whatever.

Prison labor isn't slavery either, because they can just sit and read books in their cells or whatever instead of pick up trash on the hi[gh]way.

This tells me everything I need to know. This is called the "Prison is a resort," fantasy. If it's so good then why is everyone always trying to escape? It isn't good there, and I am absolutely and completely blown away by the number of people who simple refuse to understand this basic fact. None of my clients EVER want to go to prison. None, ever....

People have no idea what the crap prison is like.

All the stuff you're talking about is theoretical. None of it is practical. You can't just sit on your ass in prison. The guards don't fucking like it and they don't like you for doing it. You think they just let you sit there all day? No. You need anything? They don't give it to you, even when they're supposed to, they often don't and what the hell are you gonna do about it? There is a commissary shop where prisoners have to buy the crap they need and the only way they get the money for that is to work in el slave labor wage work.... It literally pays pennies an hour. Also, there is a major movement to "get prisoners to pay their own way," in prison because people didn't realize their "tough on crime," BS stance actually costs the state money. This view will never work, ever. Many of these people turned to crime, because they didn't have money to begin with. Now they have even less after going to prison.... Good luck collecting that.... One of the many things I do is bill collection, suing people, garnishing wages etc. It doesn't work well with people who haven't been to prison....

[DJ]

First, if you only end up being able to fit 15,000 songs on your ipod, because the files are bigger instead of 20,000 to accommodate the self deletion code, then I'm not seeing a problem.

The point is that it can't be done at all, not that it comes at a cost. Computers just don't work that way.

b.) even if it wasn't people would "tape stuff off the radio" or something as an endrun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
You'll have more success praying to God to smite people who copy your IP than trying to patch up this hole.

[Willfor]

The thing is, allowing a file to alter itself requires an executable element in the code itself. The only files I know that can alter themselves in midstream are called viruses. In fact, most programs that can do self-alteration, or have the code required to do it are often flagged by anti-virus programs. And for good reason. If you give a file the ability to alter itself, you are giving it permission to run an executable program within itself.

I can think of a hundred ways to exploit this off the top of my head.

This would create bigger security holes in software than Adobe ever has. One injection attack on a music site on a popular song could throw so many trojans into common circulation that I honestly don't want to think about it.

[DJ]

And it still wouldn't do any good, since you generally don't execute a file while you're cracking it.

[Truean]

First, if you only end up being able to fit 15,000 songs on your ipod, because the files are bigger instead of 20,000 to accommodate the self deletion code, then I'm not seeing a problem.

The point is that it can't be done at all, not that it comes at a cost. Computers just don't work that way.

b.) even if it wasn't people would "tape stuff off the radio" or something as an endrun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
You'll have more success praying to God to smite people who copy your IP than trying to patch up this hole.

You're telling me it is technologically impossible to have a file that deletes another file when that file is tampered with? You can't have coding that deletes files? Cause I'm pretty sure I've had virus (viri) programs do that. 

I'm pretty sure if I can automatically delete files by age, then I can do it based upon other variables http://www.aspfree.com/c/a/Windows-Scripting/Age-Based-File-Deletion-in-WSH/

As for the other stuff, please see the "appeal to people's laziness." Make it easier to just listen to the 3 or 4 seconds of ad.... The world is populated by Homer Simpson....

So make it consumer grade easy/no one sees it. And have the download program alter files that are altered.

[Criptfeind]

Only one person needs to actually get rid of it. Then you have the option to have the same thing without that annoying song for the same amount of effort.

[MonkeyHead]

The BBC does something along those lines... the iPlayer (only availiable legally to UK TV licence payers) allows for online streming of programming broadcast in the last 7 days and a few select others, both TV and Radio content. It is a service that is being aped/imitated by many other broadcasters, but AFAIK it was the first (been going a good few years now), and most successful service of its type. IMHO its also by far and away the best at what it does. Simple, fast, reliable and with a massive repository of content. I even use it in a profesisonal capacity and have incorporated BBC material into lessons, lectures and tutorials in a seamless manner. You can also download them, and play them on any suitable player, but after 30 days they simply stop working. Its possible with some bits of software of dubious legality to rip them from the site, record the stream or remove the 30 day limit, but it is more than within the power of the BBC to log the IP address of anyone accessing the iPlayer site, and you can be sure they have a database of everyone who has a TV licence, seeing as most of us now pay for it over the internet. Not just that, but seeing as you and pretty much everyone else has already aid for it (thorugh the aforementioned fee) and has almost unlimited access to the content anyway its not as if it is viable to then sell on your "ripped from iPlayer" episodes when people can easily obtain them for no on the spot charge with ease. Of course, as already mentioned most end users of entertainment services have issues with being told what they can or cant do with content once they have it in thier posession

[Fenrir]

Consider that premise should you ever need the Police, Fire service, emergency medical care, use the transport network, take advantage of any educational institutions or generally dont get stabbed going to the local convenice shop.

I pay my taxes, and I pay for my health insurance, thank you very much. Should I ever have occasion to use a transport network, I would also pay for any fares they should charge.

Or, alternatively, realise that your parents form part of the society that make up the state/nation that you live in.

Did you pay them for all of the resources you consumed?

It seems that I must be more precise that my meaning is not distorted. Yes, I owe my parents. Beyond them, I have no debts to the rest of society, as G-Flex has stated. Owing a pair of people does not leave me indebted to society as a whole.