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[Frumple]

Yeah, color me corrected. The most visible prison labor in my area is farming and road work/maintenance (cleaning up the sides, mowing, etc.), so that's what I see. Apparently I wasn't seeing how they're managing to make slavery possible, bleh. I guess I see why marijuana legalization is being resisted as hard it as it is, a bit more clearly. Among other things, of course, but iirc something like 20% of th'states' prison population is in there due to drug charges*. Also could be a (logical) reason there's such an undercurrent of retribution instead of rehabilitation in the states. Someone's got reason,  i.e. slave labor, to keep that going.

I guess I'm impressed** th'corporate bastards figured out how to make slavery work in the modern era. S'a hell of a list that article Nadaka linked has. Surprised Walmart's not on there, but considering their hiring practices, I guess they don't need the help. Still! Got some better moral reasons to not eat at some fastfood joints and to avoid M$. S'something, anyway.

*The wiki G-Flex linked, under criticism. I've seen the number pop up elsewhere, though I can't remember where at th'mo.
** =/= approving, but it's a neat, reprehensible, trick.

[palsch]

I think one element of the problem (and one that is hard to fix) is an instilled lack of respect for the law.

There are two main motivators behind this. The first is the idea that those in/with power twist the law to their own will while those without power are subject to the whims of the police, justice system and anyone who wants to see them done for. This is often actually true, but the public perception is even beyond they reality. Exceptional cases (like the last one I linked to) are horrific, but people tend to use them as a blanket attack on the concept of a fair trial for those without power. If the (legal) system is against you anyway why bother trying to play by the rules?

The second is that casual lawbreaking is the norm. Everyone is a criminal, or at least criminal adjacent. How hard is it to got that little bit further?

The biggest examples here are copyright law and drug law, but the clearest explanation of the problem is this look at college and under-age drinking restrictions and the TSA. Absurd security measures that piss off normal people while being largely ineffective, or ineffective restrictions on drinking that are going to be largely ignored except in a few arbitrary cases make people lose their respect for both the rules and those enforcing them.

Getting into copyright, today ignoring copyright or working around it is a lot of what the internet is built on. Patent law is even worse to an extent, especially in the software and technology spheres. The idea of fully enforcing current copyright law is absolutely absurd (and broadly why people are so against the SOPA - it doesn't make much new illegal, but it gives the government the horrific powers needed to enforce it). But at the same time no-one quite knows what a sensible copyright reform looks like, so we end up stuck in a weird middle ground where the law is absurd but the only real solution is to largely ignore it.

Drugs are similar but worse. The law doesn't discriminate between dangerous and safe behaviour, so sensible drug users are criminalised alongside people who are actual risks. Immediately any user is pushed into contact with those who have already committed to a life outside (and opposing) the law. Law enforcement are instantly the enemy. And, again, there tend not to be many sensible discussions on how to progress to a drug peace (well, some), so we are left in a situation where the best solution is minimal or selective enforcement. Which again breeds less respect for the law as a whole, as any enforcement at that point looks arbitrary and targeted (which is probably is), feeding back into point 1.

[Sheb]

Typing "Occupy Police" will give you another reasons why Law Enforcment isn't well liked/respected.

[Montague]

Police are trained to act the way they do for a reason. It is really too dangerous of a job to have police acting like Barney Fife anymore. They are trained to react to novel situations by pressing forward with the attack. They tend to cultivate a "us vs them" mentality with the public. They also interact with the dregs of society day in and out and it tends to muddy their interactions with your average more-or-less law abiding citizen. They also get burned out and pissy like any other human being.\

Also, yeah, prisons do not really have "slave labor"; the prisoners vounteer for these work details and they are 'compensated' something like $0.05 a day or whatever. They have to earn the right to do these details as well. They also only work on public projects, public lands. They do have something like slave labor in military prisons, though, turning big rocks into little rocks, so don't commit any warcrimes, ok?

Also, drug and alcohol laws are ridicious and they should be decriminalized. I think they should just replace the "war on drugs" with some regulatory laws for the industry and keep an employer's right to hire and fire based on if they pass piss tests or not. This will keep drug users out of prison and out of air-traffic control towers and whatever, but if some retiree or day laborer wants to smoke pot? Who gives a damn? Give them the freedom of self-ownership. No country was ever ruined because it gave individuals too much freedom.

[G-Flex]

Also, drug and alcohol laws are ridicious and they should be decriminalized. I think they should just replace the "war on drugs" with some regulatory laws for the industry and keep an employer's right to hire and fire based on if they pass piss tests or not.

So even if drugs were legal, you think employers should be able to fire someone based on what they do on their spare time?

This will keep drug users out of prison and out of air-traffic control towers and whatever, but if some retiree or day laborer wants to smoke pot? Who gives a damn? Give them the freedom of
self-ownership.

How much freedom of self-ownership do you really have if your employer can still fire you based on it?

[kaijyuu]

Mmm yeah. Not a good idea to fire people based on piss tests. Fire them if they show up high the same way you'd fire them if they showed up drunk.

[Vector]

I'm also going to add that I think copyright law, as it stands, is completely outdated.  The Japanese model as I understand it, which uses fanworks as advertisements and draws on carefully cultivated personal relationships + high-quality tie-ins to keep creators fed and lively, seems like it will be a lot better in the digital distribution era than more and more arcane attempts to keep people from pirating by force.

[G-Flex]

Police are trained to act the way they do for a reason. It is really too dangerous of a job to have police acting like Barney Fife anymore. They are trained to react to novel situations by pressing forward with the attack. They tend to cultivate a "us vs them" mentality with the public. They also interact with the dregs of society day in and out and it tends to muddy their interactions with your average more-or-less law abiding citizen. They also get burned out and pissy like any other human being.\

This disturbs the hell out of me, and I'm not sure why I didn't notice it before. You really think there's "a reason" why they can get away with basically murdering unarmed suspects, for elevating violence far beyond what is necessary, and for cultivating what you admit is an "us vs them mentality" with the public they're supposed to be protecting?

I don't expect them to act like Barney Fife, but I at least expect them to get more than a paid vacation for killing someone they had no reason to even feel endangered by, and I expect them to treat the public like the people they're supposed to be protecting, and not the enemy.

We need better training for police, especially when it comes to dealing with situations without escalating the level of violence (especially when there's no violence inherent to the situation in the first place). And yeah, I understand that burnout is a problem, which is why an officer's psychiatric state should be pretty regularly evaluated and support for them should be available.

[Truean]

Also, yeah, prisons do not really have "slave labor"; the prisoners vounteer for these work details and they are 'compensated' something like $0.05 a day or whatever. They have to earn the right to do these details as well. They also only work on public projects, public lands. They do have something like slave labor in military prisons, though, turning big rocks into little rocks, so don't commit any warcrimes, ok?

What part of this isn't slave labor? That's like saying internships aren't slave labor. They are. O you *cough* "volunteered" *cough* OK.... Whatever someone has to tell themselves to sleep better at night.... Only in prison, you can't leave, so even more slavey.

No country was ever ruined because it gave individuals too much freedom.

Have you read "Brave New World?" Compare it to "1984." The later we get censored, and we have no information. The former, we get too much information and it becomes meaningless.
This is the same "deregulation" line of thinking that lead to the current banking collapse. It doesn't work in practice. Rather, it works for a little bit until reality catches up and kicks everyone in the ass for ignoring it....

Mmm yeah. Not a good idea to fire people based on piss tests. Fire them if they show up high the same way you'd fire them if they showed up drunk.

Poppy seed bagels, let me tell you about them. They show up as all kids of lovely drugs in your system, like heroine. The sale of those poppy seed products shall skyrocket the moment someplace institutes urine analysis tests.

I'm also going to add that I think copyright law, as it stands, is completely outdated.  The Japanese model as I understand it, which uses fanworks as advertisements and draws on carefully cultivated personal relationships + high-quality tie-ins to keep creators fed and lively, seems like it will be a lot better in the digital distribution era than more and more arcane attempts to keep people from pirating by force.

The problem with the internets lately is that we've essentially given the message that creative thought/writing has $0 value. Maybe when you have a rabid fan base, some of whom base a good part of their live around things like Anime in Japan, that might work. Unfortunately, we're dealing with our country which has an, "I don't care and won't pay for anything until and unless completely forced to do so," way of thinking.

In a Perfect World, Napster would've just inserted a 5 second Pepsi Ad into the beginning every song that couldn't be removed (and if you try to remove it, the song file gets automatically deleted) and paid the artists. It'd be repetitive, but free.... Pepsi, would pay a fortune for it, many fortunes actually, and everyone would get paid with no legal problems....

Police are trained to act the way they do for a reason. It is really too dangerous of a job to have police acting like Barney Fife anymore. They are trained to react to novel situations by pressing forward with the attack. They tend to cultivate a "us vs them" mentality with the public. They also interact with the dregs of society day in and out and it tends to muddy their interactions with your average more-or-less law abiding citizen. They also get burned out and pissy like any other human being.\

Police are like everyone else, there are good, bad, and ugly. The problem is that in the past decade or so they have lowered the bar across the board for what police can and cannot do. There is shit being done now that would've gotten people unconditionally fired 20 years ago. No, the world is not different, at all. It's always been this screwed up, but we just had our heads in the sand saying no one would dare attack us etc. There's something called the constitution, and it's getting harder and harder to enforce it with a straight face these days.

[Cthulhu]

This is somewhat off topic, though relevant to the broader thread topic.  Is there a name for when members of the advantageous class (white, male, middle class, etc.) Treat discrimination like a contest?  Bringing up examples of discrimination and double standards against their own groups as an attempt to somehow negate racism/sexism?  I see it a lot

[Vector]

Yeah, it's called "Oppression Olympics."  It happens between different disadvantaged groups, as well.

I'll add that the offensive "mansplaining" has been generally shortened to 'splaining in feminist circles, and is indeed something that women can do--preaching to the choir in an offensive sort of way.

[Willfor]

MP3's and WAV files are far easier to remove ads from than it is to remove DRM from games. In fact, any file that contains sound data is going to be easy to crack unless you decide to go for a route that would actively hamper its ability to play well, or force it to take up more space. These files have to be played somehow, and that involves having a standard -- and standards can be cracked.

[Truean]

MP3's and WAV files are far easier to remove ads from than it is to remove DRM from games. In fact, any file that contains sound data is going to be easy to crack unless you decide to go for a route that would actively hamper its ability to play well, or force it to take up more space. These files have to be played somehow, and that involves having a standard -- and standards can be cracked.

Any attempt to alter the file leads to its immediate deletion. Crack solved. Possible other penalties could be IP banning from download sites based upon a notice the file would send upon said deletion. Rig the damn thing to explode.

[palsch]

I found this interesting.

MP3's and WAV files are far easier to remove ads from than it is to remove DRM from games. In fact, any file that contains sound data is going to be easy to crack unless you decide to go for a route that would actively hamper its ability to play well, or force it to take up more space. These files have to be played somehow, and that involves having a standard -- and standards can be cracked.

More than that, you would have to disable any way of recording audio while also playing audio. Audio DRM is hilariously pointless to anyone who grew up recording and sharing audio tapes.

Strangely that sort of secondary recording is often legal while copying a file isn't. That's because under the DMCA breaking DRM is illegal, while making a copy of something for personal use is still protected under conventional copyright law. A good example of this was when the Downfall videos were being taken down. The chair of the EFF made a legal version using captured video rather than ripped. Fair use for being a parody and no DRM breaking.

The MPAA's take on this was somewhat more absurd.

[kaijyuu]

This is somewhat off topic, though relevant to the broader thread topic.  Is there a name for when members of the advantageous class (white, male, middle class, etc.) Treat discrimination like a contest?  Bringing up examples of discrimination and double standards against their own groups as an attempt to somehow negate racism/sexism?  I see it a lot

Whilst it's often used as an excuse, it doesn't make their complaints (inherently) illegitimate.

The problem is, of course, the "contest" attitude, and don't think only advantaged groups do that. Instead of banding together on common ground, people stick to their "us vs them" mentality and dismiss other people's concerns because they don't belong to the same group. It pisses me off.


There are differences in magnitude (men being expected to pay for dates is far, far less of a problem than women not being able to get as high paying of jobs, for example), which makes the advantaged groups doing this proportionately more egregious, but don't be fooled by the fallacy of "perspective." Someone else having it worse does not make one's concerns less valid; their validity is not proportionate to other people's problems. It DOES mean the person with worse problems should get first attention, but that's it. Also, in the case of double standards, my opinion is being advantaged by them is just as much of a problem as being disadvantaged (though obviously the ones advantaged aren't going to complain).



So yeah. Call them out if they're using it to dismiss or illegitimize. Don't attack them if they're trying to meet on some sort of common ground; "I've had a taste, however small, of what you're going through" is far from an attack.