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[Fenrir]

Those are both coming from the community.

The community considers gold to be valuable, therefore it is.

So you mean to say that the only reason anyone values anything is because everyone else values it? I am perplexed.

I'm just saying that it's a bad precedent to place intrinsic value on anything because a community values it, then judge a person based on that community value.

Except we do this all of the time. We value human life, and so we judge murders poorly. We value racial equality, and so we judge racists harshly.

But... if a community values something, then it's possible to destroy it to attack the community. The community value is important here. And if you're attacking the community because it's a black community, then you're committing a hate crime. I don't see the problem here?

I think perhaps we are all misunderstanding what one another is saying and making us all very confused.

[Andir]

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

[Rose]

Everybody is part of a community.

What is community value if not the sum of the values of its members?

[Fenrir]

I would seem to be right. We are very confused.

[ECrownofFire]

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

Actually, yes (not exactly a hate crime, though, more just "wrong"). I wouldn't want to force a certain church to marry a gay couple.

That's why we have other places to go to.

[penguinofhonor]

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

No, doing something a person/community does not like is not a hate crime.

Committing a crime against a person/community due to the race/sex/sexuality/sexual identity/etc of that person/community is a hate crime.

I don't see why you don't think that hate crime laws can apply to communities and people without somehow changing its definition. Like, instead of doing it to hurt that one evil black person, they're doing it to hurt a bunch of evil black people. That does not somehow remove the hate crime status.

[Andir]

Community value == Mob rule

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

Actually, yes (not exactly a hate crime, though, more just "wrong"). I wouldn't want to force a certain church to marry a gay couple.

That's why we have other places to go to.

Do the members of a church not have some other place to go?

[ECrownofFire]

Community value == Mob rule

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

Actually, yes (not exactly a hate crime, though, more just "wrong"). I wouldn't want to force a certain church to marry a gay couple.

That's why we have other places to go to.

Do the members of a church not have some other place to go?

No. But... this is the church that doesn't want gay people to marry, why would they leave?

[Rose]

It's their church. You don't need to go there.

[Andir]

Community value == Mob rule

So, if a community values different sex marriage, anyone attempting to violate that value is committing a hate crime?

Actually, yes (not exactly a hate crime, though, more just "wrong"). I wouldn't want to force a certain church to marry a gay couple.

That's why we have other places to go to.

Do the members of a church not have some other place to go?

No. But... this is the church that doesn't want gay people to marry, why would they leave?

I'm not saying they should.  The church that burnt down though, if nobody as hurt, should be able to find a place to worship.  I don't see why the person that burnt down the church should be judge more harshly becaue it was a church.

[Nadaka]

I agree, except that it isn't just because it is a church. It is a symbol of the community and its burning is a symbol of hatred and oppression.

[ECrownofFire]

A person that burns a church should be punished more (than a person that burns a single house) simply because it's a community building. It's comparable to burning a... park? I dunno, some kind of community center. Whether it was motivated by racism or whatever else or not should come afterwards and is a separate issue.

[Andir]

I agree, except that it isn't just because it is a church. It is a symbol of the community and its burning is a symbol of hatred and oppression.

So a gay couple violating the symbol of a community's religion is showing hatred and oppression?  They are symbolically burning that symbology of marriage.  Gay couples could live together without getting married and live the rest of their lives in peace with the community, but they choose to force upon the community their view of that symbol.

Do you not see how placing extra value on community tradition is a bad thing?

A person that burns a church should be punished more (than a person that burns a single house) simply because it's a community building. It's comparable to burning a... park? I dunno, some kind of community center. Whether it was motivated by racism or whatever else or not should come afterwards and is a separate issue.

So a person that defies a community symbol should be judged more harsh because the mob prefers it.

[fqllve]

So a person that defies a community symbol should be judged more harsh because the mob prefers it.

That's how human societies tend to work, yes.

Since the majority overwhelms, when something is valued by a larger number of people its valued higher because demand is greater, and when that thing is attacked damages are perceived as greater. It's hard to imagine the system operating differently.

[Nadaka]

I agree, except that it isn't just because it is a church. It is a symbol of the community and its burning is a symbol of hatred and oppression.

So a gay couple violating the symbol of a community's religion is showing hatred and oppression?  They are symbolically burning that symbology of marriage.  Gay couples could live together without getting married and live the rest of their lives in peace with the community, but they choose to force upon the community their view of that symbol.

ah no. Gay marriage is not an assalt on traditional marriage at all, and anyone making such an assertion is either lying or ignorant.