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[Truean]

Fuck banks.  Mine arbitrarily decided not to deposit my last paycheck and never thought that maybe I'd like to know that. 

Depending upon exactly how the bank did this, it may not be entirely legal.... The area of law here is called "negotiable instruments" (here, a check). Find one of those lawyers around you who give free consultations.... This of course assumes you're even in the US.

[G-Flex]

What are you trying yo say? A racist got sentenced to jail. What's wrong with that? Apart from it being a ridiculously long time for burning down a building, but I guess that's the American way.

In the US, a white man burning down a black church means a hell of a lot more than "burning down a building".

[scriver]

More than a white man burning down black people's building because of racism? Fill me in?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. Its a topic that may be worthy of discussion in this progressive thread. Black churches are still getting burned in this country.

I figure there'll always be racism, and always racists burning down churches. What matters in that aspect is how common an occurrence it is, and if they get punished for it.

[Vector]

There's a bit more significance over churchiness because of the whole "site of community and connection with God" sort of thing going on.  Think more like a fundamentalist, Scriver.

[Truean]

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

[ChairmanPoo]

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

THE SEA

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That all depends on your view of churches, though. I don't see them as any more important than any other type of building, and if I were directing fire control during an incident the churches would probably be one of the lowest priority buildings to save as they do not keep society in motion. Saving residences, vital service provisions, businesses, and non-vital infrastructure would come first.

I see this far more from the racism angle than the sacred ground angle. Although, overall, this is really just a freak incident. Burning churches in the US isn't common anymore, and that is why this actually made the news. That and the connection to the election, that is.

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

THE SEA

1. Cover the sea in a thin film of oil.
2. Ignition!
3. FIRE
4. FIREFIREFIREFIREFIRE
5. Stumble into the hospital with third-degree burns on over 97% of your body, having accomplished nothing.

[kaijyuu]

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

Assuming religion is the motivation, probably a lot. Well, maybe; depends how blasphemous and/or evil you think their religion is compared to their members.

If religion isn't the motivation and the arsonists share the same religion, then sure, nothing's sacred in their pursuit of hate.

[Truean]

Saw that coming....

So basically, this is the argument against animal cruelty. A cat is quite frankly useless as a utilitarian societal input. My cat is a drain on society, but I love the stupid thing. This is why the utilitarian church building compared to other buildings, model doesn't work. It's a matter of thought process of the offender.

Not long ago a young man going for a ride in a car with his friends did something terrible. He catnapped the neighbor's cat and took him into the car with the friends. At some point, they all decided it would be a great idea to throw the cat out of the car while it was going over 60mph..... A stunned driver going the other way was shocked, but thankfully not injured when he saw something hit his window.... It was the cat, as he testified at trial.

Defense: "It's just a cat."
Prosecution: "It was someone's cat. Someone who cared about it deeply enough to be in this court today. Moreover, it was a living thing. What that boy did was depraved and entirely unnecessary in all cases. If he'll do this then what will he do next?"

You can imagine the prosecution won. This was a case I watched as a law student, because it was open to the public.

A church is not a living thing. That's completely beside the point. The only point is that using a utilitarian "how useful is it," approach is flawed. The issue is what the offender will do next if he has no compunctions against doing this....

[Frumple]

A cat is quite frankly useless as a utilitarian societal input.

Point of order, this premise is flawed

Cats are both good for vermin killers and have documented benefits for health, if you're not allergic. Cats purring is good for you.

Though I guess if you were going that route, cats are to churches what mousetraps are to, I'unno, City Hall or something of similar nature. *vague shrug*

Though that doesn't really invalidate the rest of the argument, I guess.

[scriver]

There's a bit more significance over churchiness because of the whole "site of community and connection with God" sort of thing going on.  Think more like a fundamentalist, Scriver.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I should try to... Imagine what it is like in... Waitaminute. What the hell is that? Why is it... Is it coming closer? Maybe I shou-What no waitgetawayfromme OHGOD NN--*

...
...Never ask me to do that again, Vector.
NEVER.

On a serious note though, I assumed that there was some other cultu-historical thing I was missing, like burning "Black" Churches was a more common act back in Ye Goode Olde Racist Daye. It's not like it's still a common thing today or even the last century, isn't it?

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

Lots of things. People and animals both, for example.

[Frumple]

... last century, yeah. It was. Not very common nowadays, though. Maybe every second or third year you'll hear something about it happening.

[Truean]

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

Lots of things. People and animals both, for example.

Why not? That social stigma against burning a church didn't stop anything from lighting up. Neither did the associated fear of punishment. They're willing to burn one thing considered sacred, why not another, human life?

A cat is quite frankly useless as a utilitarian societal input.

Point of order, this premise is flawed

Cats are both good for vermin killers and have documented benefits for health, if you're not allergic. Cats purring is good for you.

Though I guess if you were going that route, cats are to churches what mousetraps are to, I'unno, City Hall or something of similar nature. *vague shrug*

Though that doesn't really invalidate the rest of the argument, I guess.

You haven't met my cat have you?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

*Cats and utilitarianism*

Yes, but the point I was making is that the emotional value of an object varies from person to person and thus effects how the motive of the crime must be looked at. I was trying to illustrate this by pointing out how I put almost no value on the continued survival of churches or other religious structures and would put them near the bottom of a "to save" list in a crisis. Obviously that is a viewpoint that would not be shared by most people.
All of this was to refute your point here:

If you'll burn down a church, then what WON'T you burn down?

As it implies that the sacred status of a church would be an absolutely defining part of the arsonist's motive, thus showing how depraved he must be about sacred things. But the arsonist may not have factored in at all that the church is a church. He may have done this out of a hate for black people alone and wanted to destroy something that the community he attacked saw as valuable in order to have caused harm to them. Or it may not even go that far. He could very well have been in a blind rage and burned down the first building he could find in a black community. All of these possibilities have a critical effect on his motive.

It's not like it's still a common thing today or even the last century, isn't it?

In the US it was mostly a thing during the Civil Rights Movement, actually. In fact, I'm pretty sure that MLK's church was bombed and burned by a racist mob.

[kaijyuu]

Why not? That social stigma against burning a church didn't stop anything from lighting up. Neither did the associated fear of punishment. They're willing to burn one thing considered sacred, why not another, human life?

Who says a "social stigma against burning a church" applies to the arsonist in question?


Motivation is the key question to ask when determining "what they'll do next." If you don't know their motivation and are just judging their actions, any assumptions about their future behavior are utterly baseless.

There are a million reasons why I might burn down a church, but not all of them lead to further church burning or harming people.