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[Nadaka]

Yea. I had a similar thought Truean. It worked out OK this time, but outing a kid to the wrong person (sometimes their parents) can cause irreparable harm and even be a death sentence.

[GlyphGryph]

Admittedly, being depressed can easily make you a social outcast perfectly fine without any sort of stigma associated with it at all. Not wanting to go out, being miserable/unpleasant/needy with those you interact with, being generally unreliable etc etc etc are not terribly conducive to a good social life!

Those deep in depression will often manage to lose their friends, but for perfectly logical reasons relating directly to the depression itself rather than to the social stigma.

[Virex]

OK, apparently I utterly suck at expressing myself. I thought that the medical background of depression was a given, to the point that there would be no need to discuss it, and I am in no way trying to trivialize it. What I am trying to say is that it's inhumane to treat someone diagnosed with depression as a social outcast and that people should stop doing that. The fact that people assume I'm arguing that the stigma itself is the problem should give an idea as to the extent that this kind of thinking has twisted our society.

I have never known anyone who was socially outcast because of depression. Nor have I ever seen a story of it happening. Any time in my life. In fact, your posts are the first I have ever heard of it happening. Ever.

If they are doing that, then yes, they should stop. However, how your posts sound makes it seem to me like you're saying that every person who has ever been depressed is literally being socially outcast for it. The ferocity with which you seem to think this exists in society is what is not making sense to me...

Maybe you just got lucky

[Nadaka]

Depressed people often withdraw from society because they feel out of place or unwanted. That doesn't mean that is true.

[GlyphGryph]

Stigma is definitely possible - you are sick, after all, and sickness alone has a stigma associated with it. That wasn't the point. I feel it's probably less than pretty much any other long term illness.

Remember, you originally brought this up to compare autism and depression, basically saying that a person isn't sick just because they are depressed. That was the bit I had the problem with.

[sluissa]

Well, the article did state that they convinced the kid to let them out him first, rather than just doing it without his input. Granted, I don't know what would have happened had he stuck with it and said no...

Yeah, should have been the kid's decision... in this case, was at least put in a wrapper that let it appear to be.

[Virex]

Stigma is definitely possible - you are sick, after all, and sickness alone has a stigma associated with it. That wasn't the point. I feel it's probably less than pretty much any other long term illness.

Remember, you originally brought this up to compare autism and depression, basically saying that a person isn't sick just because they are depressed. That was the bit I had the problem with.

That is true. Again, I thought the biological backgrounds and associated effects were a given and I was focusing on the social stigma which compounds the normal problems and makes it difficult for even those that are no longer diagnosed with depression to become a functional part of society once again. Read the link I provided some posts back if you want some background to this, as it can often be difficult to identify such problems if they're not pointed out to you.

[Truean]

Yea. I had a similar thought Truean. It worked out OK this time, but outing a kid to the wrong person (sometimes their parents) can cause irreparable harm and even be a death sentence.

Yups, how much you wanna bet after the media attention dies down that the kid gets treated horribly, including but not necessarily limited by any means to a "Pray the gay away" camp? ....

[GlyphGryph]

As far as the gay student getting outed thing...

I'm no so sure. It was clear he'd already outed himself to a lot of people and made it public. He did agree to telling his parents, though he was obviously afraid of doing it himself. And if he'd already come out to the student body and other kids had had a negative reaction, I can see why they'd want the parents to be informed.

It sounds like the school picked up on the fact that he wanted them to know but didn't want to be there when it happened (I've known many youngsters in that situation for various things. A lot of them really want to talk about things, but don't want to be the ones to bring it up - they'll just try to slip it out there and hope the other person catches on and does the work of bringing up the sensitive subject)

Ultimately, I don't know enough details to know whether this was a mistake or not. But it seems possible that this was a reasonable course of action for the school to take.

[Il Palazzo]

Admittedly, being depressed can easily make you a social outcast perfectly fine without any sort of stigma associated with it at all. Not wanting to go out, being miserable/unpleasant/needy with those you interact with, being generally unreliable etc etc etc are not terribly conducive to a good social life!

Don't forget crashing a huge blue planet into Earth!

[Truean]

As far as the gay student getting outed thing...

I'm no so sure. It was clear he'd already outed himself to a lot of people and made it public. He did agree to telling his parents, though he was obviously afraid of doing it himself. And if he'd already come out to the student body and other kids had had a negative reaction, I can see why they'd want the parents to be informed.

It sounds like the school picked up on the fact that he wanted them to know but didn't want to be there when it happened (I've known many youngsters in that situation for various things. A lot of them really want to talk about things, but don't want to be the ones to bring it up - they'll just try to slip it out there and hope the other person catches on and does the work of bringing up the sensitive subject)

Ultimately, I don't know enough details to know whether this was a mistake or not. But it seems possible that this was a reasonable course of action for the school to take.

And here's the problem with that: possible. Given the very real and irrevocable consequences, we should really try to be sure.

Also, I think people really do legitimately confuse what's going on in that situation. EVERY kid wants their parents' acceptance on some level, whether they like and admit it or not. They want to be accepted for who and what they are. For a gay kid, that means being accepting being gay. For me, this was Stockholm syndrome, years of it. I couldn't believe how totally god damn horrible my family is and I WOULDN'T let myself believe it. Only after it completely imploded, fell apart, and scattered most of us to the winds with domestic violence charges did I finally let myself realize what was going on.

Even without my extreme circumstances, there is a significant segment of the population in this country who sincerely but secretly hate gays. That doesn't mean their gay children don't want their parents to know them and accept them.

There is a reason PFLAG says to stay closeted until you're firmly financially independent. Just because the kid wants that acceptance does NOT mean they will get it. This sad fact needs taken into account.

[scriver]

I don't think you backpedalling is fooling anyone, Virex.

it can often be difficult to identify such problems if they're not pointed out to you.

Of course, you, who know nothing about depressiob or it's treatment, are perfectly suited at telling others how they feel and why they feel it.

You're no doubt aquaintanced with the derogative term "mansplaining". You're doing the exact same thing here.

[Virex]

Yes you're right, of course. It was never my intention to address anyone who was diagnosed with depression and I'm sorry for doing it. I guess I was so consumed with my own thoughts that I was blind to what I was actually saying.

[sluissa]

Truean, I think you're seriously being too pessimistic about this. I'm not even arguing whether the actions taken were correct or not, but just because you don't agree with the school doesn't mean that the kid is going to be sent to "pray away the gay" camp...

Maybe the situation could have been handled better, but from the article, it seems as if it turned out okay, given the circumstances. To simply assume that just because the kid is outed when he might not have been completely comfortable with it that he'll be completely and horribly abused and mistreated because of it is unfair in the extreme to the school or the parents.

[Truean]

Truean, I think you're seriously being too pessimistic about this. I'm not even arguing whether the actions taken were correct or not, but just because you don't agree with the school doesn't mean that the kid is going to be sent to "pray away the gay" camp...

Maybe the situation could have been handled better, but from the article, it seems as if it turned out okay, given the circumstances. To simply assume that just because the kid is outed when he might not have been completely comfortable with it that he'll be completely and horribly abused and mistreated because of it is unfair in the extreme to the school or the parents.

I know and admitted previously that it came out alright:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://news.yahoo.com/utah-family-supports-school-outed-gay-son-154123202.html

And cutting straight through the bullshit....

Even assuming the dad isn't lying and things worked out well THIS TIME, there are O so many times where it wouldn't. You have to think about it in terms of setting a precedent, if it is generally OK for schools to do this or not.

Categorically, NO. It isn't OK for anyone to out people. The person outed takes all the risk and the person outing them takes exactly none. Therefore, the proper position for the mouth, is shut....

I'm saying that's not the point. Just how I think, it's about setting up a procedure and a precedent in case next time it doesn't work out ok.  You have to set up some kind of guidelines to deal with all the other situations.

I dunno, maybe I've just seen too much go south very quickly. It just can't be a "no harm no foul," situation. If the next time they do this, they are wrong and it doesn't go ok, then they just say "oops" and the kid gets screwed.

I freely admit I am jaded and pessimistic, but I'm honest about it.