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[G-Flex]

That the negative connotation of the word stemmed from homophobia is rather irrelevant, because in the end the speaker is just intending to say something's "bad."

I'm sorry, but no, it's not irrelevant. You'd have a point if the etymology were some very historical thing that didn't even come to mind, but this is very recent and very directly connected to homophobia. You can't say something is "gay" without the word being at least associated with its other meaning. There is a very real connection there, even if you buy that it's used strictly to mean "bad" with no other connotation whatsoever when used as such, which I'm not sure I believe.

[kaijyuu]

I don't see where you're disagreeing with me. Did you not read the paragraph about miscommunication? xD On the assumption that there's no miscommunication, the historical/alternate meaning of a word (and method it became to have its new meaning) is irrelevant. Most cases you can't make that assumption, which is when that stuff DOES become relevant.


And yes I see it used as "bad" without the homophobic side all the time. These aren't people who'd be against gay marriage, would shun homosexuals, or anything like that. Mostly kids who picked up the word in school without knowing/caring about the alternate meaning. I don't think my experience is wholly unique. In fact, I'd be largely unsurprised if in 20 years it's used pretty much the same as "retarded" is today. "Retarded" used to be a euphemism but lost its original meaning and is now completely 100% an insult. People who use that word are not insulting the mentally handicapped (is that a dysphemism now too? I can't keep up with the euphemism/dysphemism treadmill).

[G-Flex]

And yes I see it used as "bad" without the homophobic side all the time. These aren't people who'd be against gay marriage, would shun homosexuals, or anything like that. Mostly kids who picked up the word in school without knowing/caring about the alternate meaning.

This is where I disagree. I think it's pretty much impossible to extricate the "bad" meaning from the "homosexual" meaning, and at the very least, using the term to mean "bad" perpetuates such use in others, regardless of how one means it oneself. The fact is that it comes from a pejorative/derisive view of homosexuality in some sense or another, and schoolkids know that. In terms of society at large, I just don't think it's responsible to use it as a general pejorative, even if you yourself know that you don't intend any association with homosexuality.

"Retarded" used to be a euphemism but lost its original meaning and is now completely 100% an insult. People who use that word are not insulting the mentally handicapped (is that a dysphemism now too? I can't keep up with the euphemism/dysphemism treadmill).

"Retarded" is not a simple generic pejorative, no. Even today, it's usually used somewhere along the line of... well, somewhere between a generic pejorative and "stupid" or "idiotic". And yes, some people see that as offensive, too.

[kaijyuu]

This is where I disagree. I think it's pretty much impossible to extricate the "bad" meaning from the "homosexual" meaning, and at the very least, using the term to mean "bad" perpetuates such use in others, regardless of how one means it oneself. The fact is that it comes from a pejorative/derisive view of homosexuality in some sense or another, and schoolkids know that. In terms of society at large, I just don't think it's responsible to use it as a general pejorative, even if you yourself know that you don't intend any association with homosexuality.

Yeah we really don't disagree. In fact the only thing here I disagree with is the idea that it's impossible to extricate the two meanings from one another. Words are symbols; just strings of letters and/or syllables. We apply their meaning, and we can change that meaning. That is why I think these people can use the word, though perhaps not responsibly (absolutely agree on unintentional perpetration), without being homophobic themselves.

To fix all this silliness, it'll take getting rid of one of the definitions of "gay" from general usage. That is completely possible, though it'll take time. We'll see.

"Retarded" is not a simple generic pejorative, no. Even today, it's usually used somewhere along the line of... well, somewhere between a generic pejorative and "stupid" or "idiotic". And yes, some people see that as offensive, too.

Well yeah, but I've never actually heard anyone refer to a mentally handicapped person that way. In fact I first heard that definition in a lecture about being "sensitive." Without that, the connection would never have been made. Who's perpetrating negative connotations toward actual people, in that case?

As for the people getting offended... Are these the same people that think "gypped" is an insult to gypsies? Sorry, I really have no sympathy. The basis of my argument from the very beginning is that symbols have no inherent meaning but what we give them. If the speaker did not intend the offensive meaning, and the listener knows that, then it's the listener conjuring offense. They are making the connection and forming equivalence, not the speaker.

[scriver]

G-flex is right. When "gay" is used as "bad", what people is actually saying is "bad because it is homosexual". When people call others "retarded", they're saying "you are a/like a mentally handicapped person (and that makes you less worth)". Words like idiot and dumb has very much outlived their historical origins, but it's very well understood in the general culture what's being insinuated with gay and retarded.

[G-Flex]

Yeah we really don't disagree. In fact the only thing here I disagree with is the idea that it's impossible to extricate the two meanings from one another.

I don't think it's impossible. I just think, in general, that this is not the case with the word "gay" and that, as such, it's irresponsible to use the word in a pejorative sense.

As for the people getting offended... Are these the same people that think "gypped" is an insult to gypsies?

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!). Christ, how many movies and books can we all remember with thieving, cursing, and hexing gypsies in them? There's an important reason why you can say you were "gypped" but can't say you were "jewed", and that's exactly it: Slurs become unacceptable when the target stops being an acceptable target. Homosexuals are still an acceptable target.

[Necro910]

Yeah we really don't disagree. In fact the only thing here I disagree with is the idea that it's impossible to extricate the two meanings from one another.

I don't think it's impossible. I just think, in general, that this is not the case with the word "gay" and that, as such, it's irresponsible to use the word in a pejorative sense.

As for the people getting offended... Are these the same people that think "gypped" is an insult to gypsies?

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!). Christ, how many movies and books can we all remember with thieving, cursing, and hexing gypsies in them?

WHAT? YOU DISPISE GYPSIES?

THINNER! 

[kaijyuu]

When "gay" is used as "bad", what people is actually saying is "bad because it is homosexual".

Whilst I agree that's a reasonable assumption to make, it's not guaranteed.

You admit words can "lose their historical origin." That doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual change. In order for that change to take place, one must assume that indeed, people are not using it in the way it was originally intended. Before that can happen to general usage, it has to happen in not-so-general usage. We didn't all wake up one day and decide "idiot" no longer referred to the mentally handicapped. That happened gradually, and there was a period of it having dual meaning.

You admit that a word's definition can change, and that it has happened to "idiot" and "dumb." I believe it has fully happened to "retarded" as well. I also think it's in the process of happening to "gay," though whether it'll keep it's pejorative definition or it's homosexual one is unknown.

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!). Christ, how many movies and books can we all remember with thieving, cursing, and hexing gypsies in them? There's an important reason why you can say you were "gypped" but can't say you were "jewed", and that's exactly it: Slurs become unacceptable when the target stops being an acceptable target. Homosexuals are still an acceptable target.

Heh, don't disagree with you on the negative stereotyping of gypsies. However, I really, honestly never made the connection there (again) until it was pointed out to me (in fact I spelled "gypped" with a j until recently). Was I perpetuating negative stereotypes prior to that? Only to those who made the connection of "gypsy = thief." Everyone else was either like me and didn't make a connection, or were shaking their head at my apparent ignorance.




I really hate euphemisms and dysphemisms. Such a nuisance.

[Andir]

G-flex is right. When "gay" is used as "bad", what people is actually saying is "bad because it is homosexual". When people call others "retarded", they're saying "you are a/like a mentally handicapped person (and that makes you less worth)". Words like idiot and dumb has very much outlived their historical origins, but it's very well understood in the general culture what's being insinuated with gay and retarded.

"Retarded" has meaningful relevance.  It doesn't require an attachment to the mentally handicapped, but it has been used to describe a mentally handicapped person and turned into a derogatory term.

It can simply mean to slow down or to restrict... extrapolating that out, a slow (or stupid, mentally challenged) person or idea is/can be retarded.  (ie: A retarded engine is not an engine with a mental handicap.  It has restricted input causing it to under-perform compared to another engine that's not retarded.)

Retard -
Delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment; decelerate: lose velocity; move more slowly;

[G-Flex]

You admit that a word's definition can change, and that it has happened to "idiot" and "dumb." I believe it has fully happened to "retarded" as well.

Are... are you serious? "Retarded" still means "developmentally disabled". It has other associated and connected meanings as well, but it still means that.

I also think it's in the process of happening to "gay," though whether it'll keep it's pejorative definition or it's homosexual one is unknown.

So let me get this straight: It's okay to use a slur with a double-meaning as the non-primary meaning, because someday it might not be associated with its current primary meaning? So would it be okay, then, to start using "jewed" to mean "ripped off", just because maybe, someday, people will forget that at some point it referred to a group of people?

[Leafsnail]

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!).

...Really?  I'd regard "gypped" or "pikey" or whatever as pretty goddamn offensive and absolutely a racial slur.

[SalmonGod]

And yes I see it used as "bad" without the homophobic side all the time. These aren't people who'd be against gay marriage, would shun homosexuals, or anything like that. Mostly kids who picked up the word in school without knowing/caring about the alternate meaning. I don't think my experience is wholly unique. In fact, I'd be largely unsurprised if in 20 years it's used pretty much the same as "retarded" is today. "Retarded" used to be a euphemism but lost its original meaning and is now completely 100% an insult. People who use that word are not insulting the mentally handicapped (is that a dysphemism now too? I can't keep up with the euphemism/dysphemism treadmill).

I have a couple friends who I know to be very good people and not the least bit homophobic, who use "gay" in this fashion all the time.  And I use the word "retarded" in much the same way, and didn't realize until relatively recently that it could be considered politically incorrect.  And I still call things retarded fairly often because language is habitual.  The origin of the word may be intentionally insulting to some group, but as it spreads, it becomes more likely that people will catch onto the word who just don't make the connection.  If someone grows up in a culture which uses a word in a certain context frequently there's a high likelihood, unless they're someone who thinks about word origins and political correctness in early childhood and are very self-diligent, that they will continue to reflexively use that term in adulthood even after they learn that it's improper.

One example that blew my mind is the word "jipped" as in saying "You get jipped" to your friend who was just cheated out of some money.  I didn't learn until a couple years ago that this term was in reference to gypsies, who are still around today and probably find the term offensive... but for 20+ years, I didn't have a clue.   "Gay" is a little harder to excuse, but I still understand it as habit developed early in life for many people.  I wince a little inside when people use it, just because I know how much it bothers some other people, but I still see it as an innocent thing.

Edit:  Well crap... someone ninja'd me with the exact same example!  (could that be considered insulting to ninjas?)

[Levi]

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!).

...Really?  I'd regard "gypped" or "pikey" or whatever as pretty goddamn offensive and absolutely a racial slur.

I never even realized gypped had anything to do with gypsies until I was at least in my mid-20's.  Pikey I've never heard of at all.

[Glowcat]

Going around and using 'gay' as a pejorative, associating gayness with 'bad', in an era where homosexuals are still persecuted and in many ways second-class citizens, is at best privileged selfishness and at worst serves to continue systematic prejudice in the English language itself.

[G-Flex]

Er, "gyp" is one of the few acceptable ethnic slurs left in the US. In case you haven't noticed, "gypsies" are still considered a very acceptable target for ethnic stereotyping/racism in the United States (not to mention their situation in Europe!).

...Really?  I'd regard "gypped" or "pikey" or whatever as pretty goddamn offensive and absolutely a racial slur.

I said "in the US". Across the ocean there in the UK, there's probably more acknowledgment that "gypsies" are an actual people. In the US, they're seriously treated as damn near fictional. A movie can come out with a gypsy lady laying a curse on someone and stealing their wallet, and it's as if nobody realizes that it's even referring to an actual people or ethnicity. It's very, very strange, and probably has to do with the fact that romani people have never really had a huge presence here.