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[Virex]

But as far as it's hatred, it's not a problem, people can't be convicted for thought crimes. It only becomes a problem when it turns from hatred into oppression. So for all intents and purposes, the only sexism and racism that counts are the oppressive variants.

Racist to white people? That makes no sense. Racism, like any form of oppression, is per definition tied to positions of power and men and white people alike hold position of absolute power in our world. It's quite literally impossible to oppress them. Be unkind, perhaps, but not oppress. This is the very fundamental problem that the writer purposefully decided to ignore and in doing so he's showing that he doesn't care about oppression at all.

Here is where your scope sort of becomes a bit too limited.

Men can oppress men. White people can oppress white people.

How would that work?

As well you can't downplay women's role in society either as they are a major contributor to both the job market and culture market.

You're right. I never intended to say they can't influence society. But the fact is that men still hold all the power, so for women it's a fight up a steep cliff and I admire them for having so much influence still. That however doesn't mean they are capable of oppression.

The Double Standards against men are held by both men and women.

There are no real double standards. There may be a few, but nearly all of them are not as much double standards, but infringements on our male privileges. But if we want to really become good men we have to stop crying 'double standard' and start realizing that we can't go on assuming the world revolves around us.

Also isn't this what this topic is for? The Double Standard against both men and women annoy me a great deal and everyone's blind eye to the fact that it is a "double" standard annoys me even more.

I'm just afraid that rehersing the same old topic over and over again isn't going to do anything usefull.

[Neonivek]

Racist to white people? That makes no sense. Racism, like any form of oppression, is per definition tied to positions of power and men and white people alike hold position of absolute power in our world. It's quite literally impossible to oppress them. Be unkind, perhaps, but not oppress. This is the very fundamental problem that the writer purposefully decided to ignore and in doing so he's showing that he doesn't care about oppression at all. The only way to be blind to that while writing such an apparently well-researched piece is to omit it on purpose.

Racism is not a form of oppression, it is a hatred for a group of people based on their race, that include white people. Same with sexism and men.

That doesn't exactly matter to the subject. Virex's claim is basically that a man trying to claim that the double standard is unfair is an underhanded thing for them to do because women have so little that it is like men trying to take everything.

It is a somewhat... disturbing prospect that sort of shows why on one side of the spectrum why true equality can never be reached... because in order to shift the balance you have to create an inequality. (like putting a weight on a scale. With True Equality being a balanced scale with no weights)

"How would that work?"

Simple. Men perpetuate that there is a certain method to being male and all men who do not act this way are outcasts, weird, or losers. Those who do act that way may not want to but must anyway.

" I never intended to say they can't influence society. But the fact is that men still hold all the power"

You may want to rephrase this.

"There are no real double standards. There may be a few, but nearly all of them are not as much double standards, but infringements on our male privileges."

Ohh my goodness... I can see your hidden arguement arguement...

So basically you are saying that things that tell women how to act, how to think, and what to say is horrible because they otherwise don't have much of a say

While with men it is perfectly fine, or a minor tidbit no one should care about, because they otherwise have a say?

which I think is what your saying.

Which is an arguement that has very little room to manuver around since your using a anti-elite viewpoint where only the downtraught, by virtue of having little say anyhow, are the only ones with real intrinsic rights because those on top have free reign. (For an example that isn't trying to paint you as a loon: It is saying, for example, that the Rich have no right to complain about how they are losing money because they will still be rich and wealthy and arn't even hurt. While the poor have every right as they are the only ones who are truely injured by it)

It is a really horrible prospect Vertex and has so much historical significance.

[Virex]

"How would that work?"

Simple. Men perpetuate that there is a certain method to being male and all men who do not act this way are outcasts, weird, or losers. Those who do act that way may not want to but must anyway.

That... still doesn't make any sense. They're men, why should they be bound by what others tell them?

" I never intended to say they can't influence society. But the fact is that men still hold all the power"

You may want to rephrase this.

Yeah I'm having some trouble getting that right. What I mean is that women would most definitely be able to make decisive changes, if they weren't constantly being held back from doing so. Their theoretical power exceeds that of us, but they can't access it.

"There are no real double standards. There may be a few, but nearly all of them are not as much double standards, but infringements on our male privileges."

Ohh my goodness... I can see your hidden arguement arguement...

So basically you are saying that things that tell women how to act, how to think, and what to say is horrible because they otherwise don't have much of a say

While with men it is perfectly fine, or a minor tidbit no one should care about, because they otherwise have a say?

which I think is what your saying.

Which is an arguement that has very little room to manuver around since your using a anti-elite viewpoint where only the downtraught, by virtue of having little say anyhow, are the only ones with real intrinsic rights because those on top have free reign. (For an example that isn't trying to paint you as a loon: It is saying, for example, that the Rich have no right to complain about how they are losing money because they will still be rich and wealthy and arn't even hurt. While the poor have every right as they are the only ones who are truely injured by it)

It is a really horrible prospect Vertex and has so much historical significance.

That is a pretty convoluted, but accurate explanation of my thoughts on this subject. I don't see how it can bhe horrible? The only one who could be hurt are the oppressors and I don't think I have to explain why that's not much of a problem?

[kaijyuu]

Ho boy, back to this.

As long as Virex continues to generalize and group people based on arbitrary classifications, and furthermore judge people by it, there will be no reasoning with him.

[Andir]

"How would that work?"

Simple. Men perpetuate that there is a certain method to being male and all men who do not act this way are outcasts, weird, or losers. Those who do act that way may not want to but must anyway.

That... still doesn't make any sense. They're men, why should they be bound by what others tell them?

" I never intended to say they can't influence society. But the fact is that men still hold all the power"

You may want to rephrase this.

Yeah I'm having some trouble getting that right. What I mean is that women would most definitely be able to make decisive changes, if they weren't constantly being held back from doing so. Their theoretical power exceeds that of us, but they can't access it.

YeeHaW!  We are safe in our male run society with no Women CEOs, Women Senators, Women Mayors, Women in Management, Women owned companies... doh!

[Virex]

Each of those women has been malformed by the men around her to dance to their beats. There's no other way she could've gained a position of power.

Ho boy, back to this.

As long as Virex continues to generalize and group people based on arbitrary classifications, and furthermore judge people by it, there will be no reasoning with him.

Gender and skin color are not arbitrary definitions, they are at the very core of the gender and race wars being fought by us against blacks and women.

[Neonivek]

They're men, why should they be bound by what others tell them?

Because society functions like that and it is about who are the vocal minority within that group.  Men arn't uniform in the same way women arn't uniform. Nor do they all share the same mindset.

In the same way a woman who wants to live by the double standard isn't injured by it does a man who doesn't want to adhere to the men's double standard also be hurt.

Each of those women has been malformed by the men around her to dance to their beats. There's no other way she could've gained a position of power

You are aware you are sort of creating the imagry that men and women are entirely seperate and thus equality and most forms of feminism is a sham right?

I mean WHY as a man should I ever listen to what a woman says if we lack any real connection or are even from the same society? Isn't she just a slave anyhow essentially in your scenario and anytime a woman has power it is because man lets her?

It would be unjust except by what means should we even say women are treated unjustly? If this is really just a right of the powerful then by all means women were rightfully enslaved.

[Virex]

They're men, why should they be bound by what others tell them?

Because society functions like that and it is about who are the vocal minority within that group.  Men arn't uniform in the same way women arn't uniform. Nor do they all share the same mindset.

In the same way a woman who wants to live by the double standard isn't injured by it does a man who doesn't want to adhere to the men's double standard also be hurt.

Ah, but she can't. She's living in a patriarchy and since he's living in one as well, he can.

Each of those women has been malformed by the men around her to dance to their beats. There's no other way she could've gained a position of power

You are aware you are sort of creating the imagry that men and women are entirely seperate and thus equality and most forms of feminism is a sham right?

If you mean that I perpetuate the view that men and women are intrinsically different, then I guess I have to be more careful about my words. Men and women could be equal, but the world we live in right now only wants men.

I mean WHY as a man should I ever listen to what a woman says if we lack any real connection or are even from the same society? Isn't she just a slave anyhow essentially in your scenario and anytime a woman has power it is because man lets her?

You should heed her because she's your equal. Society just doesn't let her take that position herself.

[Andir]

Each of those women has been malformed by the men around her to dance to their beats. There's no other way she could've gained a position of power.

No other way?  Obviously, since women couldn't get to those positions without acting like a man, right?  I'm sorry, but that's an absurd statement.  I know many women who are more competant than their male counterparts that received promotions because of their skill at management... not because they kowtowed to some male "dance of power".  Are you suggesting that a company would be run differently if a woman had "done it her way?"  If you do, I have some seriously bad news for you.  Women and men both look at numbers the same.

[Neonivek]

Ah, but she can't. She's living in a patriarchy and since he's living in one as well, he can.

You may want to reread what I wrote.

Men and women could be equal

Yes in the same way pigs can fly. But in your own words have you stated that men by the virtue that they are powerful do not have the right to complain about their own issues.

Thus you already established that by all means men have no reason to even care about the double standard and that human experiences arn't shared across gender.

Are you suggesting that a company would be run differently if a woman had "done it her way?"  If you do, I have some seriously bad news for you.  Women and men both look at numbers the same

No Vertex is saying that in order to even run a company a woman has to essentially become a man.

[Leafsnail]

Virex, I don't want to think you're doing this intentionally but you manage to get everyone arguing against you about the same topic again and again with startling consistency.

[Neonivek]

Virex, I don't want to think you're doing this intentionally but you manage to get everyone arguing against you about the same topic again and again with startling consistency.

Are you surprised with that stand point?

To admit I thought there would be more.

Though intentionally... maybe... Though there are people who do genuinly believe what Vertex is saying. Even forms of feminism that do teach that women and men are entirely different species and that essentially everything that happens in this world is part of this gender war between opposing sexes.

[Virex]

Each of those women has been malformed by the men around her to dance to their beats. There's no other way she could've gained a position of power.

No other way?  Obviously, since women couldn't get to those positions without acting like a man, right?  I'm sorry, but that's an absurd statement.  I know many women who are more competant than their male counterparts that received promotions because of their skill at management... not because they kowtowed to some male "dance of power".  Are you suggesting that a company would be run differently if a woman had "done it her way?"  If you do, I have some seriously bad news for you.  Women and men both look at numbers the same.

Acting like a man doesn't just entail what we as men see as male behavior. The entire concept of management is founded on an oppressive, patriarchal basis and to have management qualities inherently means you've been deformed to fit in that structure.

Virex, I don't want to think you're doing this intentionally but you manage to get everyone arguing against you about the same topic again and again with startling consistency.

That may be because my viewpoint is so alien compared to the comfortable, male-dominant world we live in that it tends to scare people senseless.

Ah, but she can't. She's living in a patriarchy and since he's living in one as well, he can.

You may want to reread what I wrote.

I have reread it, and I can still not make heads or tails of the idea of equating the positions of men and women in our current society, to be honest.

Men and women could be equal

Yes in the same way pigs can fly. But in your own words have you stated that men by the virtue that they are powerful do not have the right to complain about their own issues.

Thus you already established that by all means men have no reason to even care about the double standard and that human experiences arn't shared across gender.

That's exactly the reason we keep oppressing people and exactly the problem I'm fighting. Men should heed morals and common sense, but the patriarchy has replaced those things with the abominations we have now. Men should care about what they're doing to women. That we don't is a glaring lapse in our judgment and education.

Virex, I don't want to think you're doing this intentionally but you manage to get everyone arguing against you about the same topic again and again with startling consistency.

Are you surprised with that stand point?

To admit I thought there would be more.

Though intentionally... maybe... Though there are people who do genuinly believe what Vertex is saying. Even forms of feminism that do teach that women and men are entirely different species and that essentially everything that happens in this world is part of this gender war between opposing sexes.

If I am allowed to be brutally honest, I once adopted this viewpoint as a devils advocated, but I quickly found out it's disturbingly right. I would've hoped others would think the same way, but if they are anywhere, they're overly apologetic and not showing it.

[Neonivek]

That may be because my viewpoint is so alien compared to the comfortable, male-dominant world we live in that it tends to scare people senseless

Ok Virex is making it up now...

I have reread it, and I can still not make heads or tails of the idea of equating the positions of men and women in our current society, to be honest.

A woman who wants to do everything under the standards of society naturally isn't injured by wanting to do so, assuming it is all attainable, by the same virtue a man who wants to go against the standards of society would be hurt by those very standards.

That's exactly the reason we keep oppressing people and exactly the problem I'm fighting. Men should heed morals and common sense, but the patriarchy has replaced those things with the abominations we have now

What do you mean? It is common sense. You established that oppressing women is just flat out common sense. Why should men EVER not oppress women?

Also by what morals are you even objecting to it with? Whos morals?

[Virex]

I have reread it, and I can still not make heads or tails of the idea of equating the positions of men and women in our current society, to be honest.

A woman who wants to do everything under the standards of society naturally isn't injured by wanting to do so, assuming it is all attainable, by the same virtue a man who wants to go against the standards of society would be hurt by those very standards.

That would be the case in an egalitarian society, but in our society, women are getting the short end no matter what they do and men befall the opposite fate.

That's exactly the reason we keep oppressing people and exactly the problem I'm fighting. Men should heed morals and common sense, but the patriarchy has replaced those things with the abominations we have now

What do you mean? It is common sense. You established that oppressing women is just flat out common sense. Why should men EVER not oppress women?

Also by what morals are you even objecting to it with? Whos morals?

No. It's common sense to treat women with dignity and respect. That's a basic concept ingrained in every human. However, our society oppresses those natural instincts from the moment we are born, filling us with a spiteful pseudo-morality in which oppression instead of equality is the norm. The most brutal examples of this are religion and capitalism, but the very concept of justified oppression can be found everywhere.