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[Heron TSG]

I believe Voluntary Manslaughter is right between these... (I'm not a lawyer.)

Crime of Passion - you kill someone because what they did made you unreasonable and you killed them without thinking. Perhaps you didn't mean to, whatever.

1st Degree Murder - Premeditated murder, you're planning to kill someone.

To me, what that kid did was 1st degree murder. The deal apparently concluded that being flirted with was adequate provocation to justify murder, though not to the extent where it would be considered a crime of passion.

[Sheb]

Also, just supid me: is there a second and tird degree murder?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Murders which are crimes of passion are 2nd Degree Murder. Voluntary Manslaughter is what you use to kill someone and convince the courts to give you a light sentence, the way I see it.

Also, just stupid me: is there a second and third degree murder?

There isn't actually such a thing as third degree murder.

[Truean]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/gay-slaying.html

It isn't the 21 years. It isn't the plea deal even. The comments below from posters are crazy, as usual. It's the absolute bigotry of the whole "logic" behind the excuse of "homosexual advances" defense that bothers me. It is insane that this could conceivably reduce first degree premeditated death penalty eligible hate crime gun specification murder to voluntary manslaughter.... "Voluntary manslaughter" is traditionally just murder with "adequate provocation," to reduce the charge

I.) First, let's go with just the facts of what the kid did:
1.) He got and brought a loaded gun into a school with the intention of killing another student.
2.) He sat with the gun in a room full of students and deliberately sat behind his victim.
3.) He waited until his victim was facing the front of the room and shot him repeatedly in the back of the head.

II.) Sounds like pretty clear murder doesn't it? Now let's add some information:

1.) The victim was a slight of frame, feminine homosexual.
2.) The kid who shot him was a documented white supremacist who has lots of "white power" propaganda. On this basis, he believes homosexuality is an abomination.
3.) The school, tried to keep the gay kid from being gay.

III.) "The defense:"
1.) Gay kid was openly gay.
2.) Gay kid occasionally flirted with boys.
3.) Gay kid flirted with his killer before the incident. (though not immediately before or even the same day)

IV.) Argument:

Let's even assume for a second that the gay kid really did flirt with his killer repeatedly; that doesn't logically follow as a defense. Break it down into its component parts, a.) Someone who you don't like at all and lets even say are repulsed by; b.) makes advances towards you; c.) but despite these advances doesn't actually do anything (it's flirting). Here, the killer did not like gays and allegedly a gay kid was hitting on him. Imagine, for the sake of argument, it was an incredibly unattractive girl whom no one had any interest in at all who flirted with the guy.... See how it becomes clear when you replace "gay" with "very unattractive girl" as the undesirable party making the undesirable advances, how it is completely unacceptable to freaking kill the person? Much less by pumping bullets into the back of their head in front of an entire classroom of students...?

And, all of that actually assumes the gay kid really did flirt with the white supremacist kid who killed him? It's entirely possible he never, ever flirted with the kid who killed him, which really blows the defense away.

V.) Trial History and Response
The prosecution cut the 21 year plea deal rather than risking a second trial that could deadlock like the first one did. The first trial deadlocked.... Think about that, faced with the admitted, uncontested evidence that the jerk shot the gay kid in the back of the freaking head in front of a room full of people, about half the jurors wouldn't convict the white supremacist of first degree murder, which he very clearly committed.... The prosecution was afraid of another deadlock.... Thus, they cut the plea deal to make sure the killer served 21 years rather than going through trial forever....

VI.) Summation:
WTF? Where were the parents who let kid have loaded gun and raised kid as white supremacist? How the hell did kid get loaded gun in school? How did he shoot gay kid in the back of the freaking head in the middle of a crowded classroom? How did even part of a jury think "gay kid was gay and flirted with boys," made it less than premeditated murder.... This was not a "heat of passion" defense. He planned to take the gun into school in advance to shoot gay kid. He shot gay kid exactly as planned. They'd never let that fly with a boy shooting an "unappealing" girl or a girl shooting an "unappealing" boy. Moreover, no flirting happened even allegedly that day, but only on prior days.

Bigoted. Gay life not worth as much....

This is just... I have no words beyond what the fuck? A kid got murdered, for fucks sake!

"Voluntary manslaughter" is traditionally just murder with "adequate provocation," to reduce the charge

...This sounds very strange. How could manslaughter possibly be "volountary"? Isn't the whole point of separating manslaughter from murder that there needs to be a different charge for when a murder wasn't supposed to be a murder but ended up killing anyway? Could you give me an example of a situation that "volountary manslaughter" is supposed to cover, that isn't just weasling bullshit like this one?

Even better, he got murdered for being gay flirting with boys being gay....

Ok, so voluntary manslaughter is a real thing. I'm gonna have to go into some stuff as background for any of it to make a lick of sense, but stay with me on this.

NOTE: This is all common law; DO NOT use it as legal advice or defense. Laws of individual states trump this. You really need to seek out a lawyer if you or someone you know are charged with a crime who is licensed in your jurisdiction. Laws really do vary based upon location:

Mens Rea: Criminal Intent From least to greatest blame ~
Negligence: You've a duty to do something, breach of that duty caused damage. Example: You have a duty to watch where the crap you're going when driving your car. Rather than do that, you text on your cell phone and run someone over, killing them. This is negligent homocide.
Recklessness: You know there's a substantial risk, but screw all, you're doing it anyhow and consciously disregarding the risk. Example, you know drunk driving is bad and you could kill someone if you do it. You don't care and you do it anyhow. You fatally hit someone while driving drunk. Involuntary manslaughter. Also vehicular homocide....
Knowledge: You knew or should've known what would happen if you did something and you did it. Lo and behold it happened. You knew....
Purpose: You knew what would happen and you actually wanted it to happen and you did what you could to make it happen.

I)   Homicide:  Common law
 a.   Murder Common Law:is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought exists if there are no facts reducing the killing to voluntary manslaughter or excusing it and it was committed with one of the following states of mind. 1) intent to kill 2) intent to inflict serious bodily harm 3) depraved heart: reckless indifference to an unjustifiable high risk to human life 4) felony murder
i.   Limitations on felony murder: 1) d must be guilty of the underlying felony 2) felony must be distinct 3) death must have been a foreseeable result of the felony 4) death must have been caused before the defendant’s immediate flight 5) co felon is killed 6) death must be by felon or his agent

b.   Ohio Murder and Aggravated Murder: 1) adds unlawful termination of another’s pregnancy as a separate and distinct from the mother. 2) Ohio divides murder into two categories “Aggravated Murder” which is the purposeful killing of another with “prior calculation and design.” 2) Aggravated Murder includes felony murder for the following felonies kidnapping, rape, aggravated arson, robbery, burglary, terrorism or escape , killing of child under 13, police officer or during jail sentance 3) second degree murder is called “murder” in Ohio and requires the purposeful killing of another without any of the conditions that enhance the crime to “aggravated murder”.  4) aggravated murder= can be death

c.   Voluntary Manslaughter: is a killing that would be murder but for the existence of adequate provocation. Provocation is adequate only if: 1) would arouse sudden and intense passion in the mind of an ordinary person, causing him to lose self control 2) defendant was in fact provoked 3) there was not sufficient time between provocation and killing for passions of a reasonable person to cool and 4) the defendant in fact did not cool off between the provocation and the killing.

d.   Involuntary Manslaughter: a killing is involuntary manslaughter if it was committed with criminal negligence or during the commission of an unlawful act.
i.   Ohio: Involuntary manslaughter is causing the death of another as proximate result of committing or attempting to commit a crime. Different penalties for felony or misdemeanor.
e.   Causation: the defendant’s conduct must be both the cause in fact and the proximate cause of the victim’s death. 
i.   Proximate: a defendant’s conduct is the proximate cause of the result if the result is a natural and probable consequence of the conduct, even if the defendant did not anticipate the precise manner in which the result occurred. Superseding factors break the chain of proximate causation.  1) hasten enough 2) two people simultaneous enough 3) CL year and a day rule

**************Examples of Voluntary Manslaughter:************
See how you have to explain what the other types of homocide are to really get what any type is? You can only explain them in relation to one another.... The classic examples of voluntary manslaughter are walking into the bedroom and seeing another guy making love to your wife/husband, or finding a man has just killed your daughter as he has just done the deed or is hiding the body. The idea is that it is a quality of mercy in the law. We don't forgive you for murdering the guy sleeping with your wife when you walk in on it and see it happening, but we sorta understand how someone could snap, so we lessen the penalty/charge. You voluntarily did it, but we cut you a break if you did it right after seeing someone kill your kid....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I believe Voluntary Manslaughter is right between these... (I'm not a lawyer.)

Crime of Passion - you kill someone because what they did made you unreasonable and you killed them without thinking. Perhaps you didn't mean to, whatever.

1st Degree Murder - Premeditated murder, you're planning to kill someone.

To me, what that kid did was 1st degree murder. The deal apparently concluded that being flirted with was adequate provocation to justify murder, though not to the extent where it would be considered a crime of passion.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, just supid me: is there a second and tird degree murder?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Murders which are crimes of passion are 2nd Degree Murder. Voluntary Manslaughter is what you use to kill someone and convince the courts to give you a light sentence, the way I see it.

Also, just stupid me: is there a second and third degree murder?

There isn't actually such a thing as third degree murder.

This is why it really does depend upon what state you are in. Canada has a unified penal system; the US does NOT. Each state has its own laws. For example, look at the Ohio stuff I posed up there as subnotes to the different types of murder. Ohio has NO 1st degree murder. Rather we have Aggravated Murder. We have no second degree murder. Rather we have just plain old "murder," as "second degree." I've heard some states actually have a third degree murder for things that are lower than second but higher than manslaughter. It really does depend upon how the legislature classifies it.

Also there's the Model Penal Code. Some states follow it fairly strictly. Others, like Ohio, could care less about it and make up their own stuff.

Questions:

1) I am assuming that such a ruling defies all precedent in such cases. If so, can the ruling be reviewed/amended (e.g. court of appeal?)

2) How can the accused "agree" to a sentence? When did justice become participatory? Ok, so I get the logic of plea bargaining to some extent even if I do not agree with some of the moral or ethical considerations... but this "smells" different.

3) Where in the US did this occur? Is the area in which it occured a pretty conservative state so could overarching political thinking of the empowered individuals come in to play?

The more time I spend on these forums, the more I feel thankful for being lucky enough to live in a Western democracy that isnt the USA.

1.) Unfortunately it's been done in some states. This makes me very sad.

2.) It's just a plea bargain. The idea is that it saves everyone time. That way the state doesn't have to prove you did it; you agree that you did and waive a trial. This, however, does smell a little odd....

3.) California.

[alway]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/22/fresh-hacked-climate-science-emails
More stolen climate change emails; almost certainly the same source as the last ones.
This quote asking whether they were indeed their emails pretty much summarizes it:

When asked if they were genuine, he said: "Well, they look like mine but I hardly see anything that appears damning at all, despite them having been taken out of context. I guess they had very little left to work with, having culled in the first round the emails that could most easily be taken out of context to try to make me look bad."

[kaijyuu]

On one hand, private emails are nobody's business (I wouldn't want people opening my mail and rifling through it). On the other hand, I don't like people keeping secrets.


I guess I'm saying I'm not really on either side there. Relevant information should be free and open. Irrelevant information is nobody's business to be handing out. These emails look to be a mix of both.

[scriver]

Ah, thanks Truean. I think I understand, and agree a little. Seems very ripe for abuse, though, and, well... *nods to case*

[Truean]

Ah, thanks Truean. I think I understand, and agree a little. Seems very ripe for abuse, though, and, well... *nods to case*

Happy to be of assistance. I agree with you, abuse is certainly possible.... It is in everything. However, the presence of potential abuse, in and of itself, should not be reason to abolish this legal concept, as many have suggested over the years. It absolutely is reason to guard against it.

One cannot eliminate corruption. Vigilance, not the revocation of mercy, nor the blind expectation of morality, is the only viable solution.

The notion of voluntary manslaughter is one of the reasons I am against the death penalty, even for this crime, even though the victim was killed solely because he is gay. I am categorically opposed to it, in any and every case, no matter how horrid.

If I had a child and someone killed him or her, and/or did something even more unspeakable.... To be honest, I'd want to kill the bastard myself, on the courthouse steps, painfully, but if I did so, it would be wrong. It would be homocide. For the state to kill on ceremony, in cold calculation, with premeditation, is far worse. The state is worse than this criminal, because the state should be better than that and because the state pretends it is performing an act of virtue and justice.

I find it cruel that the same people espousing the sanctity of human life advocate the taking of it. To say one deserves death because he has dealt it is to invoke a formula everyone knows is wrong. To say that is to say two wrongs make a right. No amount of wrongs can equal a right. No such result, by any amount of addition, exists. Rather, multiple wrongs compound, creating only greater wrongs.

It's just not good enough to say its expensive to keep someone imprisoned for life. The best of us used to try and give a damn and do everything we could to do things right. Practicality was something we used as a last resort when doing things the right way failed despite our best efforts. We settled for it; today we aim for it. Today someone spins off some folky bullshit slogan and people applaud, mistaking it for wisdom. It isn't. It's just not good enough, and we're not even trying anymore. Try, damn it.

[justinlee999]

That reddit article about the child abuse at Cross Creek is horrifying, and if this is true (which probably is, given how much of the controversies these camps generate) I hope they will be given their just desserts.

And I'm not sure about the judges giving out the voluntary manslaughter charge, would they have done otherwise if the victim was a girl?

[Truean]

And I'm not sure about the judges giving out the voluntary manslaughter charge, would they have done otherwise if the victim was a girl?

Exactly my logic actually and no, no the prosecution probably would not have on this basis given a voluntary manslaughter charge. I don't know a single defense attorney who would've submitted that as a defense if the victim were female instead of gay Section IV "Argument"

[justinlee999]

I also am a Christian, does this mean I get kicked out of the Progessive Party immediately? 

[Willfor]

I also am a Christian, does this mean I get kicked out of the Progessive Party immediately? 

No it does not. Religion and political affiliation are two separate affiliations which in some parts of the world are even legally separated for good measure.

[Criptfeind]

Silly other countries.

[G-Flex]

I also am a Christian, does this mean I get kicked out of the Progessive Party immediately? 

No, because 1) there's isn't one in the US anyway, and 2) Not all Christians feel the need to enforce their religion on everyone else.

[Phmcw]

I also am a Christian, does this mean I get kicked out of the Progessive Party immediately? 

Yes, we will also call Christmas tree "winter tree", abort all your babies and ban straight marriage.