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[ECrownofFire]

All I'm gonna say is if I had my medical bills paid for, my housing taken care of and my food provided... I'd do jack shit all day long and screw around.  I'd lose all productivity.

And what did you do when you were a kid, and your parents (I assume) provided these things for you?

I explored the world around me, read books, asked questions, experimented... I grew.  I may not have done much practical from an adult perspective, but I was far from lazy.  I was energetically curious.  I sought knowledge and wisdom and would work hard for things I wanted.  Maybe not everyone is self-motivated, but some people are.

Because that's not work. Work is repetitive and generally does not involve any sense of fulfillment.

[GlyphGryph]

Really? That's strange. I mean, there are obviously components of work that will often be repetitive, but I find a lot of work I do to be fulfilling. It also pays well, heh.

Unless you were being sarcastic? Hard to tell.

[ECrownofFire]

Really? That's strange. I mean, there are obviously components of work that will often be repetitive, but I find a lot of work I do to be fulfilling. It also pays well, heh.

Unless you were being sarcastic? Hard to tell.

It's not entirely sarcastic. Think of how many people say they hate their job.

[GlyphGryph]

I know a smaller percentage of people who hate their job than I do of people who hate being jobless. I certainly think how, why, where, and when people would work would change under any of the hypotheticals we've discussed here, but I doubt most people would stop working altogether.

[ChairmanPoo]

Because that's not work. Work is repetitive and generally does not involve any sense of fulfillment.

Maybe you should look for a job that is more fulfilling to you, then...

[ECrownofFire]

I know a smaller percentage of people who hate their job than I do of people who hate being jobless. I certainly think how, why, where, and when people would work would change under any of the hypotheticals we've discussed here, but I doubt most people would stop working altogether.

It's dependent on the people you know. Ask anybody that works in a call-center or in telemarketing, and they'll rant all day about how much their job sucks.

Because that's not work. Work is repetitive and generally does not involve any sense of fulfillment.

Maybe you should look for a job that is more fulfilling to you, then...

Because getting a good job is as simple as looking for one. Well, unemployment solved. Those 9% just have to look for a job, right?

[Andir]

The reason people hate being jobless is because their job generates income... to pay the mortgage, food, and utility bills.  If those were all "rights" and granted to people, people wouldn't care about being jobless because there wouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

[ChairmanPoo]

The reason people hate being jobless is because their job generates income... to pay the mortgage, food, and utility bills.  If those were all "rights" and granted to people, people wouldn't care about being jobless because there wouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

You keep repeating this, yet there are places in which people do get aid with housing, food, and healthcare, yet are not the "freeloader paradise" that you paint..

Have you considered that perhaps these statements say more about your own motivations than the general populace's?

[GlyphGryph]

It's dependent on the people you know. Ask anybody that works in a call-center or in telemarketing, and they'll rant all day about how much their job sucks.

This is like saying starving is better than eating, because some people make a habit of eating vomit. Anyways, it simply means those job-owners would have to offer a much higher reward or vastly improve their working conditions to maintain their desired workforce, or adopt a smaller workforce, or pursue another opportunity more valuable to society. Gonna be honest here-  I'm okay with that.

The reason people hate being jobless is because their job generates income... to pay the mortgage, food, and utility bills.  If those were all "rights" and granted to people, people wouldn't care about being jobless because there wouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

Actually, most of those I know are still pretty well off. Two have parents still supporting them, another has a spouse with a job. They still aren't happy, and the two who were working were much happier before they lost the jobs.

[Andir]

The reason people hate being jobless is because their job generates income... to pay the mortgage, food, and utility bills.  If those were all "rights" and granted to people, people wouldn't care about being jobless because there wouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

You keep repeating this, while there are places in which people do get aid with housing, food, and healthcare, yet are not the slobs paradise you paint.

Have you considered that perhaps these statements say more about your own motivations than the general populace's?

And I said it before... what kind of life is that?  Living on a cot in a homeless shelter...  I would also like to know of a place today (in the US) that provides food, houses, and healthcare that isn't a prison.  People can say these exist all they want, but nobody has given examples.

The second question I have for you on this (if this is such a supreme view on the pinnacle of self learning and motivation...) is:  If these places exist, why don't some of the brightest and smartest people come from these places?

The reason people hate being jobless is because their job generates income... to pay the mortgage, food, and utility bills.  If those were all "rights" and granted to people, people wouldn't care about being jobless because there wouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

Actually, most of those I know are still pretty well off. Two have parents still supporting them, another has a spouse with a job. They still aren't happy, and the two who were working were much happier before they lost the jobs.

Ask them what their motivation is to get a job.  Is it because they feel guilty about living off others?  Social pressure to help cover the cost of living? ... or they just want to work?  I highly doubt that last one is as important as the first two.  I know my parents would be asking me how the job search went just about every other week.

[Rose]

I work doing what I always wanted to do.

I'm okay with this.

[GlyphGryph]

Andir, you've just made my point for me, several times over.

People (other than you, apparently) generally don't work for basic "necessities", they work for social and cultural reasons. The motivations that make most people work would still exist, even if they were giving a stipend each month they could live off of, or were provided with healthcare. Its the same reason rich people work, even though many of them could stop immediately and live comfortably for the rest of their lives.

I'm not actually sure what we disagree on anymore.

[Vector]

If these places exist, why don't some of the brightest and smartest people come from these places?

France is in fact known for its philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians.  Similarly, consider Poland when it was a satellite state, or Russia under communism: both produced some of the very best mathematicians and novelists the world has ever known.

Wow.  Your nationalism is moot.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't know about anyone else, but I hate not having any kind of work to do. This last summer was one of the worst I ever had because I had nothing to do. A sense of permanent procrastinate dread set in almost immediately, because I had nothing to do and felt like I should have. I was actually almost happy to be in school again after that.

So I submit that people have a natural desire to work or go crazy.

[SalmonGod]

Boredom is the worst pain ever described by people who have experienced extremes of it... and the worst extremes (solitary confinement) have proven to be mind-destroying.  People do need activity.

I know the typical response will be that people left to their own devices will often engage in useless activity.  This is subject to lots of quibbling over definitions and personal values.  What you might call "screwing around", for example, often involves some form of exploration for most people, which is not immediately productive but contributes to the growth of a person so they can be more productive later.

We do have a lot of activities available to us now that are completely useless, such as MMOs, where a person can completely rot away while doing nothing useful.  But ironically, MMO addiction is directly related to the human need for activity and progress.  They're designed to present you with a constant flow of increasing numbers, generating a perception of progress.  This taps into the brain's natural mechanisms that provide you with a small but constant feeling of accomplishment, which is physiologically represented by small releases of dopamine in the brain.  Those games get a lot of criticism for being repetitive, grinding, unfulfilling... like work... but they're addicting because they're designed to allow people to tap into their natural physiological work-triggered reward mechanism with as little actual effort as possible.

While these things are problems, they're also evidence against the claim that people are lazy.  In fact, they're proof of our ingenuity applied to maximizing our return return/investment ratio in regards to fulfilling our natural drive to work.  In essence, we've worked really hard over decades of game development to perfect our ability to avoid working hard.