Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Virex]

If you can't read the social cues, assume the worst case scenario. What's so difficult about that?


Also, treating women with respect for a change is the least we could do.

[Andir]

If you can't read the social cues, assume the worst case scenario. What's so difficult about that?

Because if I have to approach everyone as if they think I'm going to pull their spine out with a dirty spoon, I start coming off as a strange person.

Edit:

It also enforces a psychological attitude that people are terrible and you should always be defensive.  That in itself is self destructive and leads to isolationism and social distraction.  If you approach a person as if they are a kind person, they will return the favor and be kind.  Try it once.  If I walk up to someone and start trying to assure them I'm not going to kill them, their first reaction is "This person is going to kill me."

Take the elevator incident.  Do you think she would have reacted differently if he wouldn't have said: "Don't take this the wrong way?"  Being self defensive in conversations usually leads people to believe you are hiding something from them.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Social context is important, and it's what a lot of people are missing here. For example, in the town I live in, it's unusual to engage a stranger in conversation on the street apropos of nothing, and most people would be a little intimidated by it. But in the pub in the evening, it would be completely normal. There are very few hard and fast rules - perhaps the only real one is to have some empathy, try and imagine what the other person would feel like.

So, when you go out of town to a special meeting of similar interest people... you are supposed to read minds and determine if something that may be appropriate in your town is appropriate there?  Thanks for clearing that up.

If you can quote me saying that, then fair enough, otherwise you're indulging in passive-aggressive forum bullshit. If you have a real argument, please feel free to make it. If you don't, I'm not sure why you're wasting your time here.

FTR, you observe. You play it a little cautious. You ask questions. It's not rocket science, unless you make it so.

Having empathy just doesn't work.  For me, someone walking by on a dark street doesn't constitute a threat.  How am I supposed to put myself in their shoes if I don't find a problem with it?

You think about someone other than yourself for a change. Radical concept, I know.

If I happen to really dislike people on Segways because I think the people are about to run me down but someone rolls up on me should I freak out and label them as a creep for violating my personal comfort zone?

Ridiculous examples make you look ridiculous.

[RedKing]

(flames removed)

[palsch]

No, I think that the whole scenario of going out of my way to make you feel comfortable is absolutely wrong.  It doesn't smack of equality in any measure.  It only serves to elevate women to a stature of higher class individuals where men are mere peasants to their whim.  "Excuse me ma'am, but can I ask for your attention?"  If rejected, you have to bow politely three times and back away as to not be mistaken for showing aggression.  Obviously, women deserve this sort of treatment because they are much more respectable people opposed to us despicable sex driven male pigs.

And this is back to the earlier problem.

When guys response to women saying "I find this creepy," or "I feel threatened when guys do that," is to attack them and say it's an excessive imposition, that's when I have a problem.

It's simply saying that you don't care how you come across to women, if you intimidate or scare them.

Now I don't know how you behave in real life, if you are cautious about your interactions and come across as the sweetest guy on the planet. But in this exchange you are saying that you don't care if you do or not, and you are defending your right to behave in ways that you have been told women find intimidating and creepy. That's creepy in itself.

[Andir]

Social context is important, and it's what a lot of people are missing here. For example, in the town I live in, it's unusual to engage a stranger in conversation on the street apropos of nothing, and most people would be a little intimidated by it. But in the pub in the evening, it would be completely normal. There are very few hard and fast rules - perhaps the only real one is to have some empathy, try and imagine what the other person would feel like.

So, when you go out of town to a special meeting of similar interest people... you are supposed to read minds and determine if something that may be appropriate in your town is appropriate there?  Thanks for clearing that up.

If you can quote me saying that, then fair enough, otherwise you're indulging in passive-aggressive forum bullshit.

Nope, you said that different environments have different reactions.  Someone from out of town might ask someone in an elevator a question.  That's not out of the question in my town.  It may be in hers.  How am I supposed to know that without asking her?  He did ask her a question.  It didn't include sexual comments (from what she said) and it seemed normal to me.  People here seem to object to him even asking at all, as if this elevator is inappropriate.  You extended that to include locale specific preferences (bars, open streets) and I joined the two thoughts.  How is he supposed to ask her for more conversation without being able to ask her for more conversation?

Having empathy just doesn't work.  For me, someone walking by on a dark street doesn't constitute a threat.  How am I supposed to put myself in their shoes if I don't find a problem with it?

You think about someone other than yourself for a change. Radical concept, I know.

Empathy requires understanding.  If I don't understand the fear of someone walking down the street, how can I empathize with it?  Unless you are asking me for hollow empathy...which won't help.

If I happen to really dislike people on Segways because I think the people are about to run me down but someone rolls up on me should I freak out and label them as a creep for violating my personal comfort zone?

Ridiculous examples make you look ridiculous.

See above on understanding fear.  You can't empathize with someone afraid of clowns unless you can equate that fear to a rational thought.  If I'm walking down the street and do not rationalize myself as a terrible or scary person, why would I think they assume I'm a terrible and scary person?  That line of thought makes me into the worst person in the world, assuming that others that converse with me will think I'm a terrible person.  After continued use of this tactic, you start to believe that you may be a terrible person and it's psychologically damaging.

When guys response to women saying "I find this creepy," or "I feel threatened when guys do that," is to attack them and say it's an excessive imposition, that's when I have a problem.

It's simply saying that you don't care how you come across to women, if you intimidate or scare them.

Now I don't know how you behave in real life, if you are cautious about your interactions and come across as the sweetest guy on the planet. But in this exchange you are saying that you don't care if you do or not, and you are defending your right to behave in ways that you have been told women find intimidating and creepy. That's creepy in itself.

It's saying: I don't understand why I have to treat you differently than some other simply person based on your sex.  That's sexism.  It may not be detrimental sexism, but it's still sexism.

[Vector]

Spend ten minutes or so fantasizing (I don't mean to say you'd enjoy it; just, you know, all the little details) about doing everything you possibly can to hurt a woman.

Then spend ten minutes or so fantasizing about having it done to you.  And after that, think about where you'd be, who you'd be with, how you'd behave, what would trigger fear, what might not.

There you go.  Empathy.  Wow, that was hard.

[Andir]

It's not about what I could do or how it would feel.  It's about whether or not it will happen.

I do not fear being attacked by me on a dark street, so how am I supposed to empathize with someone who has that fear?

Or in other words, how am I (a person on a Segway) supposed to know that someone in front of me is afraid of being run over by me if I have no intent on running them over?

[Truean]

Um, what's intent got to do with it?
Very few, if any, people intend to hit a pedestrian at a crosswalk. It does happen though, usually without intent, as an (negligent?) accident. Even without intent, people can see how someone might be afraid of being hit in a crosswalk, especially if that person has been hit by a car before....

Foreseeable predictable =/= intent to do the predictable act. Does it? You probably wouldn't hit a pedestrian in a crosswalk, but someone else might. You'd probably never attack someone at night all. Someone else might.... If the news and police reports are any indication, it happens too much.

The person who has been hit by a car before, should be extra careful of the traffic/crosswalk signals. If they are jittery while doing so, is that not understandable?

[RedKing]

Being run down by a Segway is a pretty obscure problem.
Being a woman attacked by a male stranger on a dark street is not.

If you can't work out why or how people might be uncomfortable in that situation, then either you're being hopelessly obtuse or there is something genuinely wrong with you.

[Phmcw]

I'm sorry I disagree with these views.
I live with women radically different, especially, women that don't continually consider themselves a target.

And that's not by lack of having been attacked.
I'm sorry but ... I really don't think of your description of our optimal behaviour as adequate, and if that wasn't you that present it, I would tend to consider it sexist.
Seriously, women are not fragile little things that should live that much more in fear of physical aggression than men.
But half the women I know are martial artist and my mother repelled an aggression with an iron bar when she was young.
Also my sister got me out of a bad fight by destroying one of the five guys who were attacking me.

[Andir]

Um, what's intent got to do with it?
Very few, if any, people intend to hit a pedestrian at a crosswalk. It does happen though, usually without intent, as an (negligent?) accident. Even without intent, people can see how someone might be afraid of being hit in a crosswalk, especially if that person has been hit by a car before....

Foreseeable predictable =/= intent to do the predictable act. Does it? You probably wouldn't hit a pedestrian in a crosswalk, but someone else might. You'd probably never attack someone at night all. Someone else might.... If the news and police reports are any indication, it happens too much.

The person who has been hit by a car before, should be extra careful of the traffic/crosswalk signals. If they are jittery while doing so, is that not understandable?

Some people aren't afraid of being hit and will walk out into a busy street and get hit and blame the drivers for their negligence.  It happened here on a nearby street I travel frequently.  The person didn't have the sense to not J-walk across a busy street.

I've covered that point earlier.  If you are afraid of walking home alone at night, get a friend to walk you home or take a cab.  Don't expect everyone to know that you are afraid of people and expect them to cross the street and give you excessive leeway.

I can understand people being afraid, but don't expect others to cater to that fear.

Being run down by a Segway is a pretty obscure problem.
Being a woman attacked by a male stranger on a dark street is not.

Replace Segway with car if it makes you feel better.  The argument is no different.  You could be a runner running along a country road and a car comes up behind you.  Is that person driving the car supposed to go one block over and come back to the road you are on because you are afraid of being hit?

[Vector]

They're supposed to curve out and move a little bit away from the shoulder, yeah.

How... unsurprising.


And seriously, Phmcw, it's a cultural thing.  At this point in the US it really should be done out of politeness.

[Truean]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm sorry I disagree with these views.
I live with women radically different, especially, women that don't continually consider themselves a target.

And that's not by lack of having been attacked.
I'm sorry but ... I really don't think of your description of our optimal behaviour as adequate, and if that wasn't you that present it, I would tend to consider it sexist.
Seriously, women are not fragile little things that should live that much more in fear of physical aggression than men.
But half the women I know are martial artist and my mother repelled an aggression with an iron bar when she was young.
Also my sister got me out of a bad fight by destroying one of the five guys who were attacking me.

Being polite/considerate doesn't have to be focused towards women. Id' say it should probably be general.... The world is a very cruel place and some consideration between people, regardless of gender, couldn't hurt, could it?

"Politeness is free; give and receive it...."

[RedKing]

What Vector said. It's kind of a dick move to zoom right by a jogger/bicyclist and come within inches of clipping them.

It's actually law here that if a cop has pulled someone over on the side of the road, you're supposed to get one lane over away from the shoulder. So the cop can do his job without the fear of being hit by a car. Those stinking job-ists. Why should we make special allowances for somebody just because of their profession, right?