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[ToonyMan]

They're called eye contact buddies.  I have at least twelve.

[Rose]

They're called eye contact buddies.  I have at least twelve.

I'm sorry, but going by your avatar, I don't want to be your eye contact buddy.

And I think the possibility of a lasting friendship versus the chance of temporarily creeping somebody out is a good tradeoff.

[palsch]

And I think the possibility of a lasting friendship versus the chance of temporarily creeping somebody out is a good tradeoff.

But you don't exactly go up to everyone you could possibly talk to and introduce yourself, do you?

There are always some level of social and situation cues being used. An increased awareness of some more of these might help people avoid situations where they make a fool of themselves or put someone in a really uncomfortable situation, neither of which was going to end up in a lasting friendship (or anything else positive) anyway.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

perhaps miss the chance of meeting the love of your life and the future mother of your children, or maybe just a great friend with whom you'll have hundreds of interesting conversations, and who will help you through the hard moments of your life, versus being quickly dismissed, and described as creepy by someone who doesn't want to know you to a bunch of people you will probably never meet.

Eh, i chat up elderly people on bus stops, often compliment nice jackets or boots of complete strangers, and used to approach attractive people with no problems. I don't think i've ever come across as creepy... maybe that one time when it was somewhat reasonably late and i asked a lone guy for directions; he was significantly taller than i am, but seemed somewhat nervous.
Once, circa 10 years ago on a trip to Scotland, i saw a guy reading Terry Pratchett's Jingo. I had recently discovered the author, it's somewhat unknown in my country, and i was pleasantly surprised by finding another reader of Pratchett's work, so i chatted this guy a bit. He was re-reading the book and happily gave it away, it was my first untranslated Pratchett, and i never read a translated book of his again. I later discovered Pratchett was the best selling author in the UK at the time, so that wasn't that big of a coincidence.
On the other hand, i tried and failed spectacularly to work as a telemarketer, so i guess i have an innate sense of opportunity.

[G-Flex]

perhaps miss the chance of meeting the love of your life and the future mother of your children, or maybe just a great friend with whom you'll have hundreds of interesting conversations, and who will help you through the hard moments of your life, versus being quickly dismissed, and described as creepy by someone who doesn't want to know you to a bunch of people you will probably never meet.

I'm not sure what sort of logical fallacy this would be categorized as, but you're considering the best and (sort of) worst scenarios without considering the probabilities of either.

By your logic, I should always dig through dumpsters rather than pass them by, because the choice is between potentially finding an extremely valuable item someone accidentally tossed away, and getting a little dirty and wasting five minutes. Alternatively, it's like saying that one should always play the lottery, because it's possibly winning millions of dollars versus losing one or two.


Personally, I think it's possible to talk to strangers without totally creeping them out as long as you handle yourself well. There's also a huge spectrum of comfort between "totally comfortable" and "extremely put off and fearful of one's life", which I don't think is being considered here. I don't think it's fair to say that one should never, ever approach a stranger, but it's also unfair to say that one should have no regard for the circumstances, how one carries oneself, or the other person's body language (or other cues by which to predict their probable response).

[Truean]

I think the lesson to take away from this is: be observant and notice if the person you're talking to is comfortable. Adapt accordingly. This is what is so hard to teach in sales. He really should've either a.) waited for another time, or b.) taken into account that she was nervous/uncomfortable. You can talk to people who are nervous/uncomfortable, but you have to tailor your words for that if you plan to get anywhere....

As for the sexism thing... I've got two competing ideas in my head. Generally, yeah women are at an unfair disadvantage in that situation. Specifically, I'm sure he wasn't thinking, "and today I'll be a jackass/creep." Dude, just being practical, she's scared and there's a general trend about that.... Know about it and factor it into what you say.

Conversation in general sucks in our world, and we suck at it. Manners consist of making the other person comfortable, or at least doing your best not to make them uncomfortable.... We don't do that anymore and it shows.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

perhaps miss the chance of meeting the love of your life and the future mother of your children, or maybe just a great friend with whom you'll have hundreds of interesting conversations, and who will help you through the hard moments of your life, versus being quickly dismissed, and described as creepy by someone who doesn't want to know you to a bunch of people you will probably never meet.

I'm not sure what sort of logical fallacy this would be categorized as, but you're considering the best and (sort of) worst scenarios without considering the probabilities of either.

By your logic, I should always dig through dumpsters rather than pass them by, because the choice is between potentially finding an extremely valuable item someone accidentally tossed away, and getting a little dirty and wasting five minutes. Alternatively, it's like saying that one should always play the lottery, because it's possibly winning millions of dollars versus losing one or two.


Personally, I think it's possible to talk to strangers without totally creeping them out as long as you handle yourself well. There's also a huge spectrum of comfort between "totally comfortable" and "extremely put off and fearful of one's life", which I don't think is being considered here. I don't think it's fair to say that one should never, ever approach a stranger, but it's also unfair to say that one should have no regard for the circumstances, how one carries oneself, or the other person's body language (or other cues by which to predict their probable response).

i don't disagree with any part of this post, but i want to say in my defence that Virex did it too!! he started it

[Andir]

So there needs to be a handbook for men, where we are to go out of our way (literally walking to the other side of the street in order to not "creep someone out"!) so that women feel comfortable.  You obviously aren't allowed to strike up a conversation with someone doing something you find interesting (reading a book you liked, trying a sample of some food at the grocery store) unless they explicitly make eye contact and hold up a sign saying, "I'm free to talk."  Obviously, society needs to adapt and change to make women feel more comfortable at the expense of men.  That doesn't feel like a double standard or sexist at all.

Maybe we need "free speech" zones where men are only allowed to talk to a woman if he's in an enclosed box** so he can't rape her (because obviously, all us guys are rapists...)  ** but only if there are at least 10 other people who can witness this and their are at least 9 bright halogen lights illuminating his face, just to be safe.

No, I think that the whole scenario of going out of my way to make you feel comfortable is absolutely wrong.  It doesn't smack of equality in any measure.  It only serves to elevate women to a stature of higher class individuals where men are mere peasants to their whim.  "Excuse me ma'am, but can I ask for your attention?"  If rejected, you have to bow politely three times and back away as to not be mistaken for showing aggression.  Obviously, women deserve this sort of treatment because they are much more respectable people opposed to us despicable sex driven male pigs.

[Phmcw]

Seriously, changing side when you encounter a girl on a walkway at night?
Hell I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe assault are so common where you live that you have to consider a polite encounter in a public place a life threatening situation, maybe I'm even wrong about guns and Andir is right and not sleeping next to a loaded shotgun is a bad idea, but then I'm staying in Belgium where a smile and a "good evening" is all you need to reassure a frail old lady at night (I'm white), a knife is considered excessive force and I can talk to people even relatively creepily and being called a creep and not a potential rapist.
If you're right, then there is something wrong with your society. (A quick look at statistics show that our rape incidence is similarly high, a quick look at victims study show that Sweden's rape statistics (higher than both) are the only one to fit the victim study. I would be interested to know if I see your reaction as excessive due to personal disagreements, cultural difference or a more peaceful society).

I don't always consider rape as a feminist issue : If you're willing to assault anyone to get what you want, let's say to kill a men to steal his wallet and kill a girl to rape her, then you're objectifying everyone, and are an horrible human being who should be locked away, but your problem isn't specifically with women. Same thing if you're a bisexual rapist.
Rape is a feminist issue if the rape of women is accepted by society (of ignored).

[Andir]

Hell I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe assault are so common where you live that you have to consider a polite encounter in a public place a life threatening situation, maybe I'm even wrong about guns and Andir is right and not sleeping next to a loaded shotgun is a bad idea

It's not even remotely that bad... There has been one time I felt a little threatened in the past 33 years and that was when I went downtown and a man (homeless?) was pacing the parking lot in plain daylight and he literally told me he "wouldn't want to steal your [my] car" then asked if he could have my leftovers while standing behind my car as if he was going to prevent me from getting out of the spot.

Personally, if you think you're going into a situation where you think you might feel uncomfortable, don't do it.  If you're going to the club and you'll be walking home alone, take a cab, ask a friend to walk with you.  I don't think society should have to pay for your apprehension and fears.

Also, don't confuse "self defense as a Right" with "required self defense".  I don't feel it's required in any way whatsoever.  I have my concealed carry permit but I never carry.  It's just not needed, but I feel that the Right to do so trumps all.

Then again, I'm a guy, and I'm not allowed to feel scared.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Hell I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe assault are so common where you live that you have to consider a polite encounter in a public place a life threatening situation, maybe I'm even wrong about guns and Andir is right and not sleeping next to a loaded shotgun is a bad idea, but then I'm staying in Belgium where a smile and a "good evening" is all you need to reassure a frail old lady at night (I'm white), a knife is considered excessive force and I can talk to people even relatively creepily and being called a creep and not a potential rapist.

Social context is important, and it's what a lot of people are missing here. For example, in the town I live in, it's unusual to engage a stranger in conversation on the street apropos of nothing, and most people would be a little intimidated by it. But in the pub in the evening, it would be completely normal. There are very few hard and fast rules - perhaps the only real one is to have some empathy, try and imagine what the other person would feel like.

[Phmcw]

Self defence is a right.
Weapon should not be if it's not useful (for instance, it may be useful if there is high public disorder, maybe, so the citizen can constitute a defence force). But let's no derail (let's use pm if you wish).

[Truean]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So there needs to be a handbook for men, where we are to go out of our way (literally walking to the other side of the street in order to not "creep someone out"!) so that women feel comfortable.  You obviously aren't allowed to strike up a conversation with someone doing something you find interesting (reading a book you liked, trying a sample of some food at the grocery store) unless they explicitly make eye contact and hold up a sign saying, "I'm free to talk."  Obviously, society needs to adapt and change to make women feel more comfortable at the expense of men.  That doesn't feel like a double standard or sexist at all.

Maybe we need "free speech" zones where men are only allowed to talk to a woman if he's in an enclosed box** so he can't rape her (because obviously, all us guys are rapists...)  ** but only if there are at least 10 other people who can witness this and their are at least 9 bright halogen lights illuminating his face, just to be safe.

No, I think that the whole scenario of going out of my way to make you feel comfortable is absolutely wrong.  It doesn't smack of equality in any measure.  It only serves to elevate women to a stature of higher class individuals where men are mere peasants to their whim.  "Excuse me ma'am, but can I ask for your attention?"  If rejected, you have to bow politely three times and back away as to not be mistaken for showing aggression.  Obviously, women deserve this sort of treatment because they are much more respectable people opposed to us despicable sex driven male pigs.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hell I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe assault are so common where you live that you have to consider a polite encounter in a public place a life threatening situation, maybe I'm even wrong about guns and Andir is right and not sleeping next to a loaded shotgun is a bad idea

It's not even remotely that bad... There has been one time I felt a little threatened in the past 33 years and that was when I went downtown and a man (homeless?) was pacing the parking lot in plain daylight and he literally told me he "wouldn't want to steal your [my] car" then asked if he could have my leftovers while standing behind my car as if he was going to prevent me from getting out of the spot.

Personally, if you think you're going into a situation where you think you might feel uncomfortable, don't do it.  If you're going to the club and you'll be walking home alone, take a cab, ask a friend to walk with you.  I don't think society should have to pay for your apprehension and fears.

Also, don't confuse "self defense as a Right" with "required self defense".  I don't feel it's required in any way whatsoever.  I have my concealed carry permit but I never carry.  It's just not needed, but I feel that the Right to do so trumps all.

Then again, I'm a guy, and I'm not allowed to feel scared.

Yeah, didn't say... any of that....

Condensed message: Be observant to be considerate of people (not "women," people in general)....

There isn't a book but the unwritten rule is that context matters and there are more/less effective social strategies....

[Andir]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So there needs to be a handbook for men, where we are to go out of our way (literally walking to the other side of the street in order to not "creep someone out"!) so that women feel comfortable.  You obviously aren't allowed to strike up a conversation with someone doing something you find interesting (reading a book you liked, trying a sample of some food at the grocery store) unless they explicitly make eye contact and hold up a sign saying, "I'm free to talk."  Obviously, society needs to adapt and change to make women feel more comfortable at the expense of men.  That doesn't feel like a double standard or sexist at all.

Maybe we need "free speech" zones where men are only allowed to talk to a woman if he's in an enclosed box** so he can't rape her (because obviously, all us guys are rapists...)  ** but only if there are at least 10 other people who can witness this and their are at least 9 bright halogen lights illuminating his face, just to be safe.

No, I think that the whole scenario of going out of my way to make you feel comfortable is absolutely wrong.  It doesn't smack of equality in any measure.  It only serves to elevate women to a stature of higher class individuals where men are mere peasants to their whim.  "Excuse me ma'am, but can I ask for your attention?"  If rejected, you have to bow politely three times and back away as to not be mistaken for showing aggression.  Obviously, women deserve this sort of treatment because they are much more respectable people opposed to us despicable sex driven male pigs.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hell I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe assault are so common where you live that you have to consider a polite encounter in a public place a life threatening situation, maybe I'm even wrong about guns and Andir is right and not sleeping next to a loaded shotgun is a bad idea

It's not even remotely that bad... There has been one time I felt a little threatened in the past 33 years and that was when I went downtown and a man (homeless?) was pacing the parking lot in plain daylight and he literally told me he "wouldn't want to steal your [my] car" then asked if he could have my leftovers while standing behind my car as if he was going to prevent me from getting out of the spot.

Personally, if you think you're going into a situation where you think you might feel uncomfortable, don't do it.  If you're going to the club and you'll be walking home alone, take a cab, ask a friend to walk with you.  I don't think society should have to pay for your apprehension and fears.

Also, don't confuse "self defense as a Right" with "required self defense".  I don't feel it's required in any way whatsoever.  I have my concealed carry permit but I never carry.  It's just not needed, but I feel that the Right to do so trumps all.

Then again, I'm a guy, and I'm not allowed to feel scared.

Yeah, didn't say... any of that....

And I didn't say you did...

[Andir]

Social context is important, and it's what a lot of people are missing here. For example, in the town I live in, it's unusual to engage a stranger in conversation on the street apropos of nothing, and most people would be a little intimidated by it. But in the pub in the evening, it would be completely normal. There are very few hard and fast rules - perhaps the only real one is to have some empathy, try and imagine what the other person would feel like.

So, when you go out of town to a special meeting of similar interest people... you are supposed to read minds and determine if something that may be appropriate in your town is appropriate there?  Thanks for clearing that up.

Maybe where this guy is from, elevators are more welcoming.

Having empathy just doesn't work.  For me, someone walking by on a dark street doesn't constitute a threat.  How am I supposed to put myself in their shoes if I don't find a problem with it?  If I happen to really dislike people on Segways because I think the people are about to run me down but someone rolls up on me should I freak out and label them as a creep for violating my personal comfort zone?