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[palsch]

Just going to post this link again. I think this bit is relevant;

When I was about 14 through 17, hanging around in an urban environment, with no car, and spending a lot of time at night on foot going places, I learned to do this trick. Say I'm walking down State Street and it's 1:00 AM and there's a woman walking in front of me in the same direction. With very few exceptions, I'll overtake her, and there will then be this long, maybe one-third of a city block long period when I'm right behind her, then right next to her, then just in front of her.

From any of those three vantage points, I could grab her. From behind, or from next to her, or by turning around and grabbing her from the front. Then I could push her to the ground and drag her into an alley or whatever.

But I would not do that. Therefore, the woman walking alone at 1:00 AM in the morning downtown has nothing to worry about, right? Well, actually, since she does not know me she has a great deal to worry about because the chances that some guy walking (fast) alone down State Street in the middle of the night is a perfectly nice guy who will do no harm (me) vs. the chance that the guy is some sort of sexual assaulter or mugger is hard to assess, and the chance of the latter being the case is far from zero.

So I learned this trick. Cross the street about a block back and "pass" the lady that way. Same with a potential head-on encounter. If you see a woman walking towards you in the middle of the night on a lonely urban street, my practice in those days was to cross the street to not stress her out.
...
All men. ALL men who have given sufficient consideration to women's position in our society do this walking trick. If you are a man and you do not know about this trick then there is a problem with you.

I don't know if I'm particularly sociable, but this kind of thing has just seemed obvious to me. I'm a six foot tall guy. On one occasion when I was wearing a hood up due to rain I had a girl come up to me (while I was in a large group of mixed friends) and take it down saying I looked too scary like that. It's always seemed obvious to me that I could creep someone out without meaning to or ever being a threat. I've also lived in fairly safe places, crime wise, so walking around at night isn't something I think twice about doing myself. But I'm also aware that what I think of as safe places are places where women are still assaulted or raped with enraging frequency.

It's entirely this point that was the point of the initial video and early follow up. Basically, "see this behaviour? It's creepy. DON'T DO THAT!" The difficulty in communicating it really baffles and worries me. The massive backlash and attacks against those trying to communicate it is enraging and sickening.

[Virex]

Just to give an example as to why you shouldn't try talking to someone unless it's obvious they're interested in a chat is the first post commenting on that article:

One time a middle-aged man asked me for coffee while getting off the bus and I was creeped out.
 Another time, a different male person (who appeared to be mentally challenged) started talking to me as we were waiting to cross the street after getting off of the bus. He asked me where I live. Awkward. I just pointed in the general direction and said "that way."
 Did he mean harm? Probably not. But did it make me uncomfortable? Hell yeah! I decided that if I was going to be followed I would just take a trip to the grocery store instead. Fortunately, he didn't follow me.

These are two of many stories I have about getting creeped out, not even the ones where I was blatantly harassed.

I think about these things daily. Just seeing a stranger on the street.

Oh, and, what Amanda said about elevators.

She probably held a neutral pose prior to those events and yet she was positively creeped out by those guys.

[Leafsnail]

I admit I feel slightly queezy about crossing the road to avoid women.  Partly because of the bad connotations of the action (ie you used to do that to members of society you wanted to shun).

[Vector]

^ That's mostly a late-night situation, though.  It's not for the middle of the day, crowded areas, etc.

I'd probably sort of nod hello and then give her a wide berth, or stand off to the side to make it clear that I was ceding the way for her.  "Saying" hello and then disengaging is a good way to make it clear that you're being polite, not ostracizing her.

[Nadaka]

Expressing interest is not objectification. Being uncomfortable does not mean someone is being sexist. The only way that the elevator guys actions were "sexist" is if he did it EXPRESSLY to make her uncomfortable due to her gender. You are then taking that very limited and unknown circumstance and applying it to all men who approach women who are not interested in them (without regard to the men knowing that or not). That is an irrational conclusion that fails on its own merit and has no place in feminist philosophy.

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

[palsch]

The only way that the elevator guys actions were "sexist" is if he did it EXPRESSLY to make her uncomfortable due to her gender.

Where is the claim that he was being sexist coming from? His actions were used as an example of what not to do because they were creepy, not as sexist.

The sexism was much later, in the attacks by certain groups within the community against Rebecca and others who supported her.

[Virex]

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

[Nadaka]

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

Ok, so no one ever talks to anyone.

[Bauglir]

It seems to me that approaching anyone for conversation who isn't displaying obvious signs of being otherwise engaged is fine, but you need to bear in mind that their response (or lack thereof) should be read for additional cues as to whether they actually are cool with talking to you. I don't get this whole "It seemed okay based on the information I had at the start of the scenario, so any information I get as the whole thing unfolds is irrelevant" thing. Just be willing to back off if it turns out you misread the situation, don't act as if the other person is at fault, and don't automatically assume persistence is a virtue in every situation. Constantly reevaluate your surroundings, you'll do fine.

Comments on the actual situation maybe later, but for now it's back to work because my supervisor just walked in. >___>

[Virex]

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

Ok, so no one ever talks to anyone.

Would solve a lot of problems actually, now that I think of it. But I don't think anyone should interpret what I'm saying so stringent, there are always cases in which not talking to someone is worse than the alternative and there are situations in which people do indicate that they're interested in a chat.

[ChairmanPoo]

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

Ok, so no one ever talks to anyone.

Omerta!

[Nadaka]

Trying to get attention =/= starting a conversation. There are a lot of subtle sings that could indicate that someone might be interested in having a conversation with you. If someone isn't interested, then don't bother them.

And these subtle cues are hard to read and easy to misinterpret.

True, in such a case it's better to be safe than sorry. What are you going to mis, the chance to talk to someone? Small loss for not freaking someone out.

Ok, so no one ever talks to anyone.

Would solve a lot of problems actually.

Yes, it would solve problems like relationships of any type, from friendly to romantic.

[Virex]

You mean you can't tell when your friends might be interested in chatting?

[Leafsnail]

It's quite hard to make friends if you don't talk to anyone ever.

[Virex]

Most friendships are born from people talking to each other out of necessity anyway. I don't see how not creeping out random strangers is going to have much of an impact on that.