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[KaelGotDwarves]

This is a classic case of silly people with subzero people skills doing silly things, on both sides.

It wasn't inherently misogynistic until people said stupid things afterwards. Shame on them. But as to the original point, it's just weird for a man to ask a woman back to a hotel room in an enclosed space, but not "rapey" or sexist. It's not a threatening act to simply ask - you'd have to read everyone's implications there.

It seems like the most levelheaded thing to do is say that you can't judge all men, women, atheists, whatever by a few comments from people with what may be great intellects but also great egos and a point to prove.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

But as to the original point, it's just weird for a man to ask a woman back to a hotel room in an enclosed space, but not "rapey" or sexist. It's not a threatening act to simply ask - you'd have to read everyone's implications there.

It's not the request itself that's creepy, it's the context, the location it takes place in. One with no escape, and no witnesses.

[Vector]

Kael, you seem to not understand the "taking out a gun and putting it on the table" metaphor.

Getting essentially asked for sex in an enclosed space is like that.  It's not brandishing.  It's not intentionally threatening.  But it is like the above situation, like if two businessmen were about to start negotiating and one took a gun out of his pocket and just put it on the table between them.  Or, I guess, more like he had a gun-like shape in his pocket that might or might not have been a gun, but the other person had no way of knowing and had been told over and over, his entire life, "DON'T negotiate with a man who looks like he might have a gun!  Just don't do it!" and in the outer society, much of his moral worth was wrapped up around being a dude who had never been shot.

[Heron TSG]

Either I missed something, or I'm incredibly naive. What's wrong with meeting to talk about a seminar over coffee? I think it's kind of weird to assume that that would lead to sex. Seminars tend not to be too arousing.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Either I missed something, or I'm incredibly naive.

The latter.

[Blargityblarg]

Kael, you seem to not understand the "taking out a gun and putting it on the table" metaphor.

Getting essentially asked for sex in an enclosed space is like that.  It's not brandishing.  It's not intentionally threatening.  But it is like the above situation, like if two businessmen were about to start negotiating and one took a gun out of his pocket and just put it on the table between them.  Or, I guess, more like he had a gun-like shape in his pocket that might or might not have been a gun, but the other person had no way of knowing and had been told over and over, his entire life, "DON'T negotiate with a man who looks like he might have a gun!  Just don't do it!" and in the outer society, much of his moral worth was wrapped up around being a dude who had never been shot.

I wish we lived in a world where a penis could not be analogised to a handgun.

fakeedit: 'coffee' is sort of a euphemism for sex, though I'm not sufficiently familiar with the incident to know what sense the bloke had meant it in. In any case, coffee in someone's room carries a good deal more connotation than coffee at a Starbucks or whatever.

[ChairmanPoo]

Either I missed something, or I'm incredibly naive.

The latter.

Or maybe you're the one who reads too much into things.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Kael, you seem to not understand the "taking out a gun and putting it on the table" metaphor.

Getting essentially asked for sex in an enclosed space is like that.  It's not brandishing.  It's not intentionally threatening.  But it is like the above situation, like if two businessmen were about to start negotiating and one took a gun out of his pocket and just put it on the table between them.  Or, I guess, more like he had a gun-like shape in his pocket that might or might not have been a gun, but the other person had no way of knowing and had been told over and over, his entire life, "DON'T negotiate with a man who looks like he might have a gun!  Just don't do it!" and in the outer society, much of his moral worth was wrapped up around being a dude who had never been shot.

That's part of the problem. She was not "essentially asked for sex" because he did not ask for sex. Tell me if I'm reading it wrong but he sounds like she was asked to come over to his room for coffee - and while the context makes it weird and creepy, automagically equating that proposition to "asking for sex and objectifying her as a woman" is a bit of a stretch.

[scriver]

Either I missed something, or I'm incredibly naive.

The latter.

Or maybe you're the one who reads too much into things.

Iirc, it was late at night, they were heading back to their rooms, and the guy asked her in for coffee. It didn't have to be a come on, but it's not that much of a stretch to assume it was. Like Blarg said, coffee in someone's room is different than "let's meet for a coffee one day".

[Heron TSG]

You're right. Obviously the best interpretation is the one that assumes the man was asking for sex. I mean, all men do that, right?

[Virex]

Show me one incident of a guy in an elevator asking a woman to come over to his room at that time that doesn't involve him hoping to get something out of it?

[kaijyuu]

And besides; is it sexist now to ask for sex? Provided he didn't force anything I don't think he did anything wrong at all (even assuming he was using a euphemism). I'm not gonna argue it wasn't weird and creepy; just not "objectifying."

And for the record, there's no reason the recipient of such a request should "put up with it" if they don't want to. Tell the dude to go fuck himself. I got no problem with such a response. It'd be nicely symbolic, too.

[scriver]

You're right. Obviously the best interpretation is the one that assumes the man was asking for sex. I mean, all men do that, right?

I'd have assumed the same if it the situation was reversed.

[KaelGotDwarves]

You're right. Obviously the best interpretation is the one that assumes the man was asking for sex. I mean, all men do that, right?

Hah. That's a slippery slope of sarcasm there, mister.

Now I'm thinking that if every time I invited a woman over at night were taken as invitations to sex, I should have gotten the shit slapped out of me constantly. Hell, this creeps myself out.

It's possible for it to not be about sex. Why is everyone's mind on sex anyhow? That's what I want to know.

Show me one incident of a guy in an elevator asking a woman to come over to his room at that time that doesn't involve him hoping to get something out of it?

See Barbarossa's post. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.

I've pulled all kinds of crazy shit, like Model UN and Youth in Government, where as a supposedly horny male teenager with raging hormones had girls in my *gasp* bedroom late at night and no sex. Sheesh. Although we did have pillow fights and sing-a-longs.

[Virex]

It's a good thing you're stronger than most men then. I get physically sick at the thought of what you could've pulled off in those situations....

And besides; is it sexist now to ask for sex? Provided he didn't force anything I don't think he did anything wrong at all (even assuming he was using a euphemism). I'm not gonna argue it wasn't weird and creepy; just not "objectifying."

And for the record, there's no reason the recipient of such a request should "put up with it" if they don't want to. Tell the dude to go fuck himself. I got no problem with such a response. It'd be nicely symbolic, too.

It's a guy who wants sex from a woman he doesn't even know and probably won't ever meet again, asking it in a secluded space when there's just the two of them, without considering for a moment that she may be uncomfortable with the situation, probably even expecting her not to resist. That sounds pretty objectifying...