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[GlyphGryph]

Uh... for what, exactly? I'm not sure how you mean them.

I personally like Ze/Zes/Zem

[Leafsnail]

If singular they is a grammatical error, it's a pretty widely used and old one (I mean, Chaucer and Shakespeare used it).

[Ogdibus]

I propose we call everyone fish before we find the gender.

Since fish are tasty.

They am cuddly, too. :3

[sluissa]

They or them as singularis sounds damn strange to my ears and tongue, really. Can you really use them like that?

Sometimes sounds a bit weird, but I've always used them that way. "I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

[Truean]

English is dumb and doesn't have neutral pronouns.

Yes it does: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/it

(granted, as Asimov noted thirty years ago, it's not too adequate when talking about people)

I'm really not too concerned at the moment but.... Uh, it isn't popular but "One" is a technically correct answer for a gender neutral singular pronoun in English. It is also rarely used by anyone and if you say "One went the the store," they might not get what you mean at all. In all honesty they might make fun of you for using it, which is sad. French uses "one" a lot but strangely, they have masculine and feminine versions of "one" along with everything else, so it kind of defeats the purpose. I'm sorry, but "he" is clearly masculine even though the tradition says otherwise and this is pretty much the whole objection feminism has. Though I've found it odd that feminism doesn't call itself egalitarianism, especially if they want men to agree with and join them, they have to be gender inclusive, which I thought was their whole deal. Personally, I couldn't care less because I'm sort of mixed up on the whole thing....

the occasional sisterhood crap I sometimes spring Truean and Janet with.

I sort of live for that actually, strange as it may be of me.

Wow, uh... I don't know what I've missed, exactly, but having skimmed through the last couple of pages I have to say I'm probably really really glad I missed it.

So, I've been wanting to talk about something, and maybe it doesn't really belong in this thread, but at the very least you guys are mostly people I wouldn't mind discussing it with and anything to shift the topic to something hopefully productive.

It's like this - a while ago, I was thought of by at least a few people the forum as a girl (thanks to a humorous mafia thread). I'm actually a guy, technically, but I didn't discourage it. I didn't actively lie about it or try to deceive anyone, but I actually liked being thought of that way, treated that way, because at least for a little while, while I was reading responses, I could see myself that way. And it was nice.

Now, I don't have any problem being a guy, and no real desire to become a girl, but it was nice to feel like a girl somewhere, to be treated like one. To think of myself as one for a while. But eventually, of course, most people realized I was a guy (not too hard to figure out really, and it is the default, so in absence of my reinforcing things to the contrary...), and of course I realized once people know that, even if you ask them to, they're probably not going to think of you as a girl when they post any more. I mean, I feel like because of it I understand a small part of the difficulties a trans-person faces : to know other people won't see you the way they want you to, the suspicion that even if they got them to call you by the desired pronoun they would still "think" of you as the other gender, and that's important somehow.

But I miss it. I miss feeling a bit feminine, I miss not feeling like a guy for a little while. Do people think actively portraying myself as female in a sort of situation like that would be dishonest? If, say, I were on a different forum, would it be alright to "be a girl"? Would it be insulting to actual women on the internet? Or is an internet id really what you make it, and if you see yourself as something and act like it, you are it (for the defined scope, at least)?

I don't know, it feels like it would be a sensitive issue, and I don't really understand why but I feel like it would be. I don't feel like I'd be lying, I may not have the real life experiences that go into being a woman so maybe I wouldn't be a normal woman, but I would feel like within the confines of the environment I would be... but I feel like if it came out that I took on a different gender identity on a different forum, people would feel like I was just pretending and...

Uh, I don't know. I just know I've wanted to make this post for a while and never really been confident enough too or felt like this wasn't the right place, but since it deals with issues of gender identity maybe it was? And every attempt always came out this sloppy, so I figured what the hell... Sometimes I just want to be a girl for a while, and I feel guilty about it like the desire alone is enough to somehow diminish its meaning... and then I wish that it didn't have any meaning. In my ideal society gender labels would be something we chose, indistinct from physical sex, that we could take on or off at will.

Eh, maybe I'm just a weirdo. :/

As long as you're not hurting anyone or lying to get something, I don't think it's too bad.

I have no idea. I thought I did. I don't. Just because I suffer from a condition doesn't mean I understand it or anything to do with it, fully or at all. Though I'm constantly painfully aware of my own symptoms and signs. Kind of like the bottom part in the spoiler for starters. I don't know or pretend to know if it's ok or not for someone to "pretend they are a girl" online or if there are some circumstances that are more understandable than others. I clearly do and did it, because people often get real mean real fast if you say you're a MtF trans. That said, I've never done anything romantic with a guy online or otherwise tricked someone for anything other than conversation. The color of a lie matters and I aim for white. I don't know. I used to be cripplingly ashamed of myself for it, and thankfully after years of therapy that's improved. As long as you're not hurting anyone, I don't see a problem. Then again, speaking of colors, I might be quite the black pot talking to a kettle I'm unable to call black. If you're bad, I'm certainly worse, because I've done it intentionally for years.

I don't know and I'm unable to care if it matters that I want to be a woman and you don't. If you want, I'll call you one.

If I had to guess, I'd say three things matter, your intentions, actions, and results. I'm guessing none of those are malicious, so basically you're probably fine. I don't think most women would have a problem with it as long as you're not trolling/mocking them. I don't think most transgender people would have a problem with it on the same condition.

It's funny how we divide ourselves into something purely the result of the accident of birth.

@Truean: <3 <3 <3  She's back and kicking ass!

*Applause!*

[curtsy]

[scriver]

Sometimes sounds a bit weird, but I've always used them that way. "I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

But that "they" isn't refering to the person as singular, it's refering to him (and by connection his business and other employees in it) as an entity?

Or if you mean the apple-them it's referring to the many apples being sold not the singular you bought.

That's how it feels in my head, at least.

[Truean]

Sometimes sounds a bit weird, but I've always used them that way. "I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

But that "they" isn't refering to the person as singular, it's refering to him (and by connection his business and other employees in it) as an entity?

Or if you mean the apple-them it's referring to the many apples being sold not the singular you bought.

That's how it feels in my head, at least.

I kinda thought it was like... the French somewhat.

It more or less depends how you say it and in what tense, etc. Without getting too involved and inadvertently administering a sleep aid....

"They" would be the third person plural and you used it correctly, because you were talking about multiple persons or things that were not you. "One" is the generic/epicene (formal) gender neutral pronoun. It's a lot like old formal tense "Ye" (O come all ye faithful....) No one uses it unfortunately  Unfortunately the only widespread formally recognized gender neutral prounoun is usually... "it." That only applies to objects, which by definition would dehumanize someone if applied to a person.

[Leafsnail]

How about something like "If a customer requires help, they should contact..."?

[Truean]

How about something like "If a customer requires help, they should contact..."?

Works. (as long as "they" is in reference to "customer")

[ChairmanPoo]

"I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

sounds kind of odd, though. And maybe would generate confusion...

[Leafsnail]

Works. (as long as "they" is in reference to "customer")

"Customer" is 100% singular though, correct?

[sluissa]

Sometimes sounds a bit weird, but I've always used them that way. "I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

But that "they" isn't refering to the person as singular, it's refering to him (and by connection his business and other employees in it) as an entity?

Or if you mean the apple-them it's referring to the many apples being sold not the singular you bought.

That's how it feels in my head, at least.

Okay, bad example then. Perhaps. "I inherited this jacket from my cousin. They wanted me to have it."

[Truean]

"I bought an apple from the salesperson. They were selling them half off."

sounds kind of odd, though. And maybe would generate confusion...

Admittedly yes, it most certainly sounds odd, the only people who talk like that are English teachers, some lawyers, authors, etc.

Works. (as long as "they" is in reference to "customer")

"Customer" is 100% singular though, correct?

Yes, but if you look at the chart, the second one labeled, "Full list of personal pronouns," you'll see "they" under the rows "third-person," "singular," "generic/epicene (nonstandard)" and the column "subjective." Incidentally, "they" is also listed under "plural," so "they" would be the pronoun for "customer" singular, and "customers" plural. It would get confusing when a costumer is a group such as a corporation {the customer is XYZ Inc.} if "they" wasn't true for both tenses.

However, as ChairmanPoo pointed out, it sounds weird. It might impress your English Professor, but otherwise.... It's all about who you're talking to. Save the $50 words for those expensive occasions and use a $5 word when one of those will do.

I will not necessarily talk this way in front of a jury, because I care less about conjugation and more about them giving a damn. Honestly. Juries could care less about the English roots in Latin, later French mixed with German/Saxon and the masculine/feminine, formal/informal tenses (Vous vs. Tu in French, and Thee vs. Thou in English) and if I want them to listen at all without falling asleep....

I should sell this to some pharmaceutical company and make a fortune putting people to sleep. A tape of this, the Rule Against Perpetuities, and Writs in Old English Equity would put any insomniac to sleep instantly.

[kaijyuu]

Re: Being seen as a gender you're not online.

Heh, I had the exact same scenario when I was a teenager. People mistook me for female and I went along with it. Never did lie about it, but didn't make any effort to dispel the notion

Luckily the friends I had turned out to be actual friends, and didn't judge when the truth came out. Still very grateful for that; it's an embarrassing memory.


Anywho, two things about it:

1) Obviously I don't really care much about gender in the first place, so I definitely won't look down on anyone who does this. So long as you're not being manipulative for self benefit I don't see any harm whatsoever. To me it's sort of... an experimental phase. Depending on the person, it could be so far as experimentation with being transsexual. There's nothing wrong with exploring that avenue.

2) Double standards. Ugh. I actually only really got hit with the "beneficial" ones. The people I was around were... typical geek guys fawning over "omg girlz!" I never got extra favors or whatever, but I did get a disproportionate amount of attention.

Considering I was a huge introvert back then, this new persona was very liberating. I could talk to people and be outgoing without being embarrassed, largely because of the mask I was wearing. An embarrassing time of my life, but a beneficial one now that I think about it; the "mask" I wore sort of merged into my "real" personality. I'm far less introverted than I was back then, though I still have social anxiety.

So yeah.

[scriver]

"They" would be the third person plural and you used it correctly, because you were talking about multiple persons or things that were not you. "One" is the generic/epicene (formal) genderl neutral pronoun. It's a lot like old formal tense "Ye" (O come all ye faithful....) No one uses it unfortunately  Unfortunately the only widespread formally recognized gender neutral prounoun is usually... "it." That only applies to objects, which by definition would dehumanize someone if applied to a person.

Over here we have two gender neutral pronouns, "den" and "det". "Det" mostly refers to dead, inanimate objects, while "den" refers mainly to living beings. So at least here you have the option of being dehumanised to an animal rather than an object, should you use them

Eehr.. I'm too tired to stay on the point right now.

How about something like "If a customer requires help, they should contact..."?

Yeah.. That gives somewhat that kind of feeling.

Pre-edit: goddamnit, six new replies and moveaway.. I would adress them, but I need to go to sleep now.