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[Virex]

I'll just pop in and point out that who has it "better" or "worse" is irrelevant. We're all subject to stupid gender roles and we should be fighting *all* of them, hand in hand.

It's senseless to fight squirrels if there are dragons to slay though...

[Bauglir]

I'll just pop in and point out that who has it "better" or "worse" is irrelevant. We're all subject to stupid gender roles and we should be fighting *all* of them, hand in hand.

It's senseless to fight squirrels if there are dragons to slay though...

Not really. A properly cooked squirrel is, no doubt, delicious, and they are much more common than dragons (of which I've seen none). Not sure what the relevance here is though...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Actually, my response to this is that when one comes up, there's no reason to say "Oh, the lesser evil can slide because we could be talking about something even worse". Otherwise, every discussion would just be about how awful the Holocaust was, basically. If we're directly comparing the two, sure, but we weren't until somebody brought up that it sucks to be a man in reply - which, as far as I'm concerned is irrelevant to how much it sucks to be a woman, so it was pretty off-topic.

EDIT: At any rate, Mindmaker, I agree with you that there are some nasty stereotypes that men are expected to live up to, and that's far from fair. I certainly don't think it's reasonable to say that you should suck it up since women have it so much worse - the thing is, I don't think anyone has. Your post about gender roles in general sucking just seemed to come out of nowhere, but I'm not entirely sure how it's gotten to this point since it doesn't seem that confrontational given the final line. Blah, I dunno.

[Siquo]

Yeah, I'm going to go with Kaijyuu an Bauglir here, consider that my closing statement and I'm going to stop arguing about it.

[Virex]

Edit: Redacted, best to let this rest

[Bauglir]

EDIT Alright then

[kaijyuu]

I'll just pop in and point out that who has it "better" or "worse" is irrelevant. We're all subject to stupid gender roles and we should be fighting *all* of them, hand in hand.

It's senseless to fight squirrels if there are dragons to slay though...

Your analogy is flawed. Dragons burninate the countryside; squirrels do not. You're implying that men's issues aren't as big a deal as women's, which is bullshit.

Again, who has it "worse" or "better" is irrelevant. This is not because they have the same pervasiveness in our culture, but rather because they are the same problem. You cannot solve sexism by ignoring half the issue. We are all human beings, and so long as we continue drawing lines in the sand based on gender, as long as we have an "us and them" mentality, we'll never stop double standards and all the bullshit they cause.

[Mindmaker]

I honestly don't care anymore.
Only my side needs evidence, since it's common knowledge that only women can suffer from the way our society works.

Don't bother arguing, since I've already requested the deletion of this account.

Funny you mention pity though, having been on the recieving end on countless occasions and having half a dozen people rush by (post wise) whenever your day was less than perfect.

[Pnx]

I think the issue that causes so much of this gender conflict over "who has it worse", is that both men and women are pretty damn tired of having their issues marginalized. For guys it is especially prominent because the gender role issue is rarely, if ever addressed, and female gender role issues get the spotlight while male issues get marginalized.
For women it is especially prominent because traditional gender roles marginalize women, and marginalizing their gender role concerns is playing into that problem, and frankly, it reeks of perpetuating that gender role.

*sigh*
To put it in Vector's words.

But, ah, well.  I guess everyone wins.

[Vector]

Okay, you win.  Good game <3

[Gunner-Chan]

.
Don't bother arguing, since I've already requested the deletion of this account.

QQ more. If you keep on like this it's no wonder you felt you had no friends here. You didn't even try since it's all you you you.

[Virex]

I honestly don't care anymore.
Only my side needs evidence, since it's common knowledge that only women can suffer from the way our society works.

Don't bother arguing, since I've already requested the deletion of this account.

Funny you mention pity though, having been on the recieving end on countless occasions and having half a dozen people rush by (post wise) whenever your day was less than perfect.

Huh, makes me wonder why he thought emotional blackmail would do anything?

[Bauglir]

See, I don't get where the persecution complex is coming from.

Only my side needs evidence, since it's common knowledge that only women can suffer from the way our society works.

See, who's said that only women have problems? Nearly every post in this thread disagreeing with you has been "Stereotypes of men have problems too, but..." You're reading into us a bigotry that doesn't exist, or at the least exaggerating one that might into something obnoxious. That doesn't sit well with me - it's a typical guilt-tripping tactic, and I've had some rough experiences with people who rely on them. Maybe you're not reading this, but I still feel it's something I have to reply to. And, truth be told, I think you are still reading it.

If you're serious about not wanting an account here anymore, I'd recommend just not visiting the site anymore and adding bay12's webmaster to your email account's blacklist for spam, I'm not sure if Toady does account deletions on request. It's a simple enough matter to simply stop logging in, at any rate, so you don't have to bug an admin. I'll be sad to see you go, whatever you might think from the tone of this post. The only things that have ever, in my mind, been dickish of you have happened in this thread, today - and I don't think that's enough to qualify someone as a dick. Although I suppose that is going to end up being my final impression of you, so whatever.

[Vector]

Possibly the same reason every pan-handler knows that I'm the one you scream "Fuck you!  Fuck you, bitch!" in the face of when I don't have a quarter to give them.  I'm easy to hurt.  Overly sensitive.

Good thing I'm not a man, right?  I'm a woman, so I don't get shit for it, because this is what's expected of us.  Sensitivity to other people's problems, self-sacrifice...

Oh.

Oh wait.  I still get bullshit for it.


Gender roles suck.  I'll talk for as long as anyone likes on that subject.  I'll agree with you, even if I won't play oppression olympics, as some people seem to be suggesting.

Despite that, I don't like being manipulated.  I especially don't like being manipulated by friends.

[Aqizzar]

Only my side needs evidence, since it's common knowledge that only women can suffer from the way our society works.

See, who's said that only women have problems?

I feel like backing him up here, not because I necessarily agree with him, but because I feel he needs sticking up for.  Who said?  Virex, mostly, in a tone I have a real problem with.

Why is it that whenever a woman brings up a problem, a lot of men always chime in with completely irrelevant or negligible grievances to prove that they too have it bad?

You're insisting that women need your superior, masculine compassion and understanding to be allowed to feel that way. You're insisting that women need to be able to connect with male feelings instead of allowing them to have their own feelings independent of yours. I would've hoped you could see the problem with that.

It's occasional inconvenience in a social situation that predominantly expects you to be independent and act on that (meaning that people generally expect you to not adhere to social norms anyway) versus a social expectation of submissiveness and perpetual stigmatization regardless of your behavior. If you're going to argue that you come anywhere near the issues woman are faced with you're going to have to provide some evidence.

Look, he even asked for evidence.

[Vector]

I don't understand what the issue with asking for evidence, even anecdotal, is.

I mean, this thread is filled to the brim with news articles and personal stories.  What, now we just say that untextured "you're wrong" statements are the king of chess?