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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 872369 times)

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6015 on: October 14, 2011, 03:48:11 pm »

[My heels inadvertently make a bit of a sound as I step on boards of a soapbox laid on the floor]

Value and values....

"For being in a capitalist country, I'm confused about what things are worth and it seems other people might be too. It seems the prices and values aren't clearly marked anymore if they ever were....

I really want to be a lady and believe I am, but what are we women worth exactly? I think the message I'm getting is, 'not a whole lot, and shut up.' Who cares if a woman dies; we're certainly worth less than a baby. If it's a horrid choice between the baby and the woman, then clearly a doctor should be allowed to deny us life saving operations (even though doing so won't save the child) and while not directly killing us, letting us die through inaction still produces a corpse: two actually, one inside the other. In fact, you can just beat the hell out of us and they won't prosecute you: too expensive. . Can't raise taxes, especially to pay for justice, we women aren't worth it. It seems it is too expensive monetarily and morally, to save a woman, medically or legally. It's a cost people aren't willing to pay for a value we don't have, in taxes or in thought. If human life is sacred and killing one is a travesty, then allowing two to die instead of just one is what exactly? This is considered moral and a value; except it isn't.

I'm not seeing values, I'm seeing hypcrisy and I'm offended. And, what's really insulting, is calling this bill "pro life," but not your life, "you shouldn't have dressed provocatively, you slut." That's the first hypocrisy. They say we should keep our legs shut, except of course when they want us to open them..... That's the second hypocrisy. The third hypocrisy, is calling America a "Christian Nation," and demanding abortion be banned on that basis while refusing to help the poor children that are born and never mind when they grow up. Either we need to stop trying to call this a Christian Nation or we need to start helping the poor and the sick, and doing a couple of things Jesus would've done....

WWJD...? Speaking of the poor and the sick, crowds in presidential debates are cheering the idea of letting them die, while claiming to be for family values. That is of course, unless your family is uninsured, or mom medically needs an abortion to live, or God forbid, you're gay. In, yet another contradiction, I'm hearing a lot of "We support our troops," from the same people who booed a soldier at a presidential debate, solely because he's gay. For all the hate he has gotten, he has never said anything about them. That soldier's name is Stephen Hill, and while I'm sure he doesn't want to die, he would to defend the very people who booed him for being honest.

Speaking of soldiers and there not being enough money, at some point this war is going to have to end and those troops are going to come home. When they do, they might want jobs, except there aren't even enough for the people here now.....  Unemployment is "offically" understated at 9.1% and august added no jobs, none. The stock market is somehow "up" and doesn't seem to notice or care. Pretty much everyone has been clamoring for Congress to do something about the economy and jobs, but naturally, they aren't listening. Instead, the GOP lead House of Representatives clamors for tax cuts to the rich and passes this abortion related bill, while the Demacratic Senate does... not much at all really. President Obama at least tried to submit a jobs bill, but really, he's exactly like the GOP--submitting bills he knows won't pass into law be they about abortion or jobs.... All the while the "job creators" haven't really created a lot of jobs, despite having some of the lowest taxes and highest incomes in American History. And it seems despite lower taxes failing to create jobs, people are still clamoring for more of that.... Both the government and business, they're all wasting our valuable time while acting bewildered that some of us, after being fired, foreclosed, or evicted with no home, no job, no hope and nowhere else to go have decided to protest.... It seems there's no reason or value to that either.... We should be quiet and if we're going to die then we had better damn well do it and reduce the surplus population....

Much as the notion that a part of the population is "surplus" and thus without value fits this theme nicely, that's enough Dickens for one day. That was the past and relevant as it might be to our future, I shudder at a present dominated by hatred and yearn for one presided over by thought. I cannot improve upon Clarence Darrow, so I'll borrow his words in homage:

"I am pleading for a time when hatred and cruelty will not control the hearts of men. When we can learn by reason and judgment and understanding and faith that all life is worth saving, and that mercy is the highest attribute of man.

I feel that I should apologize for the length of time I have taken. This case may not be as important as I think it is, and I am sure I do not need to tell this court, or to tell my friends that I would fight just as hard for the poor as for the rich. If I should succeed, my greatest reward and my greatest hope will be that for the countless unfortunates who must tread the same road in blind childhood that these poor boys have trod -- that I have done something to help human understanding, to temper justice with mercy, to overcome hate with love."


That was from a famous case where Darrow argued against the death penalty. I suppose now, I'm pleading for the lives of those women, denied a simple procedure that would save them, condemned not by court but by sanctimony, the sick condemned by callousness, the poor condemned by commerce.

Our lives, whoever we are, are not to be put a price on, that we may be told we cannot afford them. We are not for sale. Human decency is not to be auctioned off and sold to the highest bidder. One cannot buy virtue and any attempt results in its lack.

The value of a human life is so great as to be beyond the ability of infinite numbers to express or contain...."
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:09:28 pm by Truean »
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6016 on: October 14, 2011, 03:51:02 pm »

*shrug*

This is one of the reasons why I hate being a girl.  You're fucked over pretty much no matter what.  You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).  You wear sexy-ish clothing and you get too much attention from some people, and there are other people who just can't talk to you period.

I get tired.

But yes, SalmonGod, if we ever met I'd be sure to show off just how undesirable I am, in order to minimize everyone else's discomfort.


@Truean: <3 <3 <3  She's back and kicking ass!
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6017 on: October 14, 2011, 03:56:04 pm »

I understand the rhetoric about being liberated and comfortable with one's sexuality, and having the freedom to express that.  I don't have the right to deny anyone those things.  In a perfect world, it wouldn't be an issue... but since the world is far from perfect, I do have the right to ask people to be considerate, because some women have self-esteem issues and some men have to live with those women.
Err, I don't mean to be rude, but honestly I don't think it is at all the other women's fault here. You should be asking your wife to be considerate to them, not the other way around. Unreasonable jealousy means the problem is hers, not theirs.

Now I understand you might not be able to do anything about this, but understand the source of your stress is NOT the other women here.

I expected that response, and part of what I wrote already addressed that.

I have had epic battles with her over her jealousy issues.  Seriously.  You have no idea.  It's put us on the verge of divorce many times.  It would have already split us up many times, if we didn't already have kids.

It's still the reality I have to live with, and I know many other people do as well.  It's not that there's anything inherently morally wrong with dressing any certain way, or that I have the right to demand conservative dress of anyone for my sake.  It's just that these problems exist in the world, and I think it is considerate to dress accordingly.

There are very few situations where living dogmatically according to one's ideals without consideration to how it effects others is considered a good quality.  I don't know why clothing would be any different.

This is one of the reasons why I hate being a girl.  You're fucked over pretty much no matter what.  You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).  You wear sexy-ish clothing and you get too much attention from some people, and there are other people who just can't talk to you period.

I really hate that it is that way, and that I can't even conceive of how much it has to suck.

But yes, SalmonGod, if we ever met I'd be sure to show off just how undesirable I am, in order to minimize everyone else's discomfort.

And that this makes me feel guilty, and I can't even tell how much that guilt is actually intended or deserved.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:03:45 pm by SalmonGod »
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6018 on: October 14, 2011, 04:00:47 pm »

Only one thing is someones own preferences on comfort and one is your wife being insecure to an extent that it's a problem. Good job blaming everyone but the person that deserves it.

I knew I didn't like you.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6019 on: October 14, 2011, 04:02:41 pm »

Only one thing is someones own preferences on comfort and one is your wife being insecure to an extent that it's a problem. Good job blaming everyone but the person that deserves it.
I thought that at first too, but he's actually not after reading his reply. Asking for consideration != blaming them for your problems.

Nice job being an ass, though :P
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Gunner-Chan

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6020 on: October 14, 2011, 04:03:56 pm »

No I'm sorry. If someone is going to threaten divorcing you over the suspicion of looking at other people there's other deeper problems than how someone is dressing. It's as simple as that.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6021 on: October 14, 2011, 04:07:49 pm »

No I'm sorry. If someone is going to threaten divorcing you over the suspicion of looking at other people there's other deeper problems than how someone is dressing. It's as simple as that.

No, she's never threatened to divorce me over it.  I've threatened to divorce her for making it such a huge issue.  Kind of an important distinction in this context.  I understand the problem is with her, and not how other people dress.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6022 on: October 14, 2011, 04:08:58 pm »

I really hope you've got some sort of plan for when she starts showing visible signs of aging =/
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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Gunner-Chan

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6023 on: October 14, 2011, 04:09:49 pm »

Oh. I must of misread that bit since I've known people that have done that. For THAT I apologise to her.

Not you though, that's a fucking dick move. Yay for my biases proving to be right again. Yaaayyy...
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Rose

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6024 on: October 14, 2011, 04:14:52 pm »

I really hope you've got some sort of plan for when she starts showing visible signs of aging =/

He's already stated that he's staying with her because of the kids.
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Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6025 on: October 14, 2011, 04:19:24 pm »

This is one of the reasons why I hate being a girl.  You're fucked over pretty much no matter what.  You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).  You wear sexy-ish clothing and you get too much attention from some people, and there are other people who just can't talk to you period.

I'm expected to be confident and assertive, displaying it on every occasion.
Not to mention that I have to be interested in sex 24/7 and participate in any related discussion, because if I'm not my sexuality gets questioned.

Can we agree that gender doesn't suck, only the "roles" and expectations tied to them?
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Chattox

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6026 on: October 14, 2011, 04:20:09 pm »

You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).

*walks into thread*

Actually, I really like casual, comfortable, non-sexy clothing on women. It makes you look like an actual person with thoughts, feelings and opinions, as opposed to dressing as though your only purpose is to attract a mate (a lot of women seem to think this, it's not.). Heck, the day I met my fiancée she was wearing jeans, a long-sleeved t-shirt and a zip-front hoodie. She does enjoy dressing up, but she prefers dressing casually because she just feels more comfortable that way. She was beautiful then and she's just as beautiful several years down the line. I personally really prefer it.
By no means should you take this as me telling women to stop dressing up for men, or for themselves. I know a lot of women get a self-esteem boost from "dolling up" as it were. I'm just saying that I'm one of the few people who actually prefers it when women dress comfortably as opposed to "attractively".

Hope it makes you feel better that there's at least one person who wont think you look bad just because you're dressing for comfort instead of for looks :P

*walks out of thread*
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Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6027 on: October 14, 2011, 04:21:35 pm »

I really hope you've got some sort of plan for when she starts showing visible signs of aging =/

I don't really see how salmongods wife aging has anything to do with her actions.

I've had similar problems myself, my ex would throw an absolute fit if I so much as worked in the same building as a woman. And she would throw a fit if I looked at a woman, or talked to one for any reason or had one as a friend. I lost a lot of good friends, i couldn't ever mention my coworkers names, I couldn't look half the population in the eye or say thanks to a checkout girl. Her behavior was obscenely inappropriate and destructive to our relationship. You have to be a saint or a masochist to put up with that kind of behavior, but you can't do it forever. She can either become sane or deal with driving away someone who loved her.
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Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6028 on: October 14, 2011, 04:25:24 pm »

Meh, I got a "It'd be nice if they didn't dress like this because it makes my life inconvenient but that's not really their fault" vibe.

At any rate, I don't think there's a right or wrong associated with what somebody's wearing. There is with why a person might be wearing a particular article of clothing, sure, but I can't look at somebody wearing an absurdly short skirt and say whether she should or should not be wearing it - all I can comment on is the aesthetic impact in my own opinion, which (unfortunately) involves using the word "should" in a context that might have implications I don't want it to, if I'm not careful to avoid using it.

A woman wears baggy clothes because she is ashamed of her body and fears being mocked? Bad (but not necessarily something to blame her for)
A woman wears baggy clothes because it's what she had clean and she doesn't particularly want to show off her body that day anyway? Yeah, that's fine.
A woman wears baggy clothes because the particular clothing expresses some aspect of her personality that she wants to display? Yeah, that's good.
A woman wears skintight next-to-nothing because she feels she's obligated to if she's to be well-liked? Bad (again, there's a good chance it's not something to blame her for)
A woman wears skintight next-to-nothing because she wants to seduce her friend's monogamous spouse? Bad (and probably something to blame the woman for).
A woman wears skintight next-to-nothing because she's interested in showing off? Fine on its own, certain contexts might make it bad (say, a funeral).

I could go on a lot longer, and include examples about men, too - this is far from a complete list, since a complete one would basically be infinitely long. For that matter, try not to draw direct comparisons from one entry to another (the first skintight example isn't supposed to be an equivalent to the first baggy example, this was just the order I thought of things in).

tl;dr: Whether a clothing choice is good or bad is entirely a matter of the context in which it was made, and the actual nature of the clothes in question is pretty much irrelevant.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the aging comment was because Vector is suggesting that SalmonGod's wife going to become even more jealous the less highly she thinks of her own physical appearance.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Pnx

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6029 on: October 14, 2011, 04:27:46 pm »

You kinda can't win on this one, people judge on appearances very easily, and it's annoying as hell.
To put my personal guy grievances along side that issue, there's the annoying fact that people will consider you a threat, and sometimes other guys won't consider you enough of one.
If you don't dress and behave masculine enough, people also tend to consider you gay. So for most guys you have to broadcast your sexuality at all times, which of course leads into the issue where people will look out for women, while expecting men to fend for themselves. Because offering help might make them seem weak.

It's that kind of stuff that makes me feel guys get the short end of the stick, but I question that.
At the end of the day all I can say is that the world frigging sucks, and I only hope I'm not managing to make it worse.
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