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[Andir]

All three of those are true to some degree (though what degree is up for debate). That is the problem.

I went ahead and replaced the strong words ("no parts", "only there") with more general ("almost no parts", "mostly there") because I can think of at least one woman that I wouldn't consider "pretty" along with Anne Ramsey (RIP, Throw Mamma from the Train).  There are also pretty famous overweight women in television (Oprah, yeah, I know... Rosanne, Queen Latifah, Conchata Ferrell [maid in Two and a Half Men and other roles], Kathy Kinney [Mimi, Drew Carey], Kathy Bates...)

I think the issue is that it's another book saying "here is how the world is," falling short-sighted, concealing other ways of being.

... isn't Starfire an alien?

I agree with most of the outrage about how media influences culture which then influences how real women are treated.  This point just nagged at me.

She's a woman in everything except backstory.

It's an interesting point though.  How do you define an alien as a woman?  Is it reproductive organs?  In Deep Space Nine there was a woman with a surrogate being inside her and people always called her a woman but the being in her had always been a man in a previous hosts (if I remember correctly.)  Could it be that we identify her as a human because she sort of looks like what we'd expect a woman looks like in some way?

Edit: Yeah, sorry Salmon.  I just saw your post during my review.  What you said too... about expectations.

[Bohandas]

And what if those fantasies are wrong?

If it were accurate it wouldn't be a fantasy!

[Virex]

And what if those fantasies are wrong?

If it were accurate it wouldn't be a fantasy!

Wrong kind of wrong...

[Bohandas]

All the same: why does adult always mean catering to those who would objectify women?

Does the word euphemism ring a bell?

I'm saying that it's interesting that "adult" makes an assumption of heterosexual masculinity right off the bat.

I call bullshit on that. I KNOW I've heard gay pornography be described as "adult literature".

[Virex]

All three of those are true to some degree (though what degree is up for debate). That is the problem.

I went ahead and replaced the strong words ("no parts", "only there") with more general ("almost no parts", "mostly there") because I can think of at least one woman that I wouldn't consider "pretty" along with Anne Ramsey (RIP, Throw Mamma from the Train).  There are also pretty famous overweight women in television (Oprah, yeah, I know... Rosanne, Queen Latifah, Conchata Ferrell [maid in Two and a Half Men and other roles], Kathy Kinney [Mimi, Drew Carey], Kathy Bates...)

Of those, only Conchata Ferell could really be called overweight and even that is pushing it. Of course, by television standards they're morbidly obese...

[Bohandas]

Yeah, but it's still hard for me to accept the statement that the comic is a representation of how the world is.  It's not representing women.  It's representing an orange woman from another planet...

I totally agree that taking a pre-established positive role-model in the direction that they have was irresponsible and distasteful.  I just feel the need to balance things out when condemning statements start branching out a bit farther than I think they should -- claiming author intent that doesn't make much sense.  This statement would apply to tons and tons of other sexist media.  I just don't see it in this case.  Think of this as a grammar nazi moment.  I get the message and agree.  This detail just bugged me.

Edit:

Which brings up an interesting question I'd like to get a feminist perspective on.

Do the same expectations that apply to portrayals of human women in media apply universally?  Do women of fictional species or alternate dimensions need to live up to these expectations?

Let's say, for instance, there is a species of anthropomorphic praying mantis people, and its women are portrayed as predatory, cold, and calculating complete with literal man-devouring habits.  Would that be considered sexist?

I completely agree.

Also, link (somewhat NSFW)

[Andir]

All three of those are true to some degree (though what degree is up for debate). That is the problem.

I went ahead and replaced the strong words ("no parts", "only there") with more general ("almost no parts", "mostly there") because I can think of at least one woman that I wouldn't consider "pretty" along with Anne Ramsey (RIP, Throw Mamma from the Train).  There are also pretty famous overweight women in television (Oprah, yeah, I know... Rosanne, Queen Latifah, Conchata Ferrell [maid in Two and a Half Men and other roles], Kathy Kinney [Mimi, Drew Carey], Kathy Bates...)

Of those, only Conchata Ferell could really be called overweight and even that is pushing it. Of course, by television standards they're morbidly obese...

Medically overweight classification is a rather low(I think Conchata falls in obese actually.  I don't know her weight, but I'm sure it's pushing the line.)  Subjective overweight is... well, subjective.

[Bohandas]

The main problem, Andir, is that there is nothing else to these women than their appearance and fanservice ... These women we are talking about are not just idealisations, they are reduced to sexual objects, only there to titillate the ... readers.

The problem with your argument is that a lot of men wouldn't consider this a negative situation to be in. It isn't an issue of negative portrayal, its a difference of opinion as to what is or isn't a good situation.

[Virex]

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

All three of those are true to some degree (though what degree is up for debate). That is the problem.

I went ahead and replaced the strong words ("no parts", "only there") with more general ("almost no parts", "mostly there") because I can think of at least one woman that I wouldn't consider "pretty" along with Anne Ramsey (RIP, Throw Mamma from the Train).  There are also pretty famous overweight women in television (Oprah, yeah, I know... Rosanne, Queen Latifah, Conchata Ferrell [maid in Two and a Half Men and other roles], Kathy Kinney [Mimi, Drew Carey], Kathy Bates...)

Of those, only Conchata Ferell could really be called overweight and even that is pushing it. Of course, by television standards they're morbidly obese...

Medically overweight classification is a rather low(I think Conchata falls in obese actually.  I don't know her weight, but I'm sure it's pushing the line.)  Subjective overweight is... well, subjective.

The medical definition has been heavely influenced by what society deems pretty though.

[Duke 2.0]

 I would like it if we could get somebody familiar with comics to explain to us the backstory of Starfire as she was originally made. The cartoon Teen Titans has a very different character from the one who has been in comics for probably a decade before, and while one could say the producers of the comic are reducing a one positive role model to eye candy they could just as easily be taking a character what was not nearly as different and using them like they use pretty much every comic character.

[Andir]

The medical definition has been heavely influenced by what society deems pretty though.

I ... find that an odd statement.

[Bohandas]

It's an interesting point though.  How do you define an alien as a woman?  Is it reproductive organs?  In Deep Space Nine there was a woman with a surrogate being inside her and people always called her a woman but the being in her had always been a man in a previous hosts (if I remember correctly.)  Could it be that we identify her as a human because she sort of looks like what we'd expect a woman looks like in some way?

There was also a character in Next Generation who was the same species but the opposite situation. It was in a male body for most of the episode but by the end of the episode was eventually transferred to a female host body.

[Virex]

The medical definition has been heavely influenced by what society deems pretty though.

I ... find that an odd statement.

Overweight people live longer than "healthy" people, even when correcting for income and social background. So much for the medical side of that definition.

[Bohandas]

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

That's what I meant by "difference of opinion".

Remember the Golden Rule. If men didn't view women in these ways, they would be hypocrites.

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things

"Trust"? "Judgement Call"!? Its a fucking comic book! They weren't exactly pressing, life or death matters even before print was dead!

[SalmonGod]

The weight issue is difficult.

If most women in the media can be considered negative role models due to their weights being unusually low, unhealthy for most people, and setting up harmful expectations in men...

Then overweight women can also be considered negative role models, because it's also unhealthy to be overweight and that's not something we want people to be satisfied with.

But then you run into the issue of stigma imbalance between genders, so to be fair you have to put a whole bunch of thought into what kind of messages you're sending with your male casts as well.

Then you run into the issue of your media becoming completely disconnected from reality while you obsess over social engineering.