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[scriver]

The main problem, Andir, is that there is nothing else to these women than their appearance and fanservice. That is even what the kid was complaining about. Not that the heroine was "pretty", as she said. That she didn't do anything. And that is the problem - men in comics are idealised, definitely (mostly in a non-sexual way, though), but they are allowed character, story, room. These women we are talking about are not just idealisations, they are reduced to sexual objects, only there to titillate the boy readers.

If the female characters, regardless of their looks, really, were given actual character an purpose except looking good and showing off tits and ass, a big part of the problem would go away. Or at least, it would even out the difference between how men and women are portrayed somewhat.

[Virex]

Men don't get stigmatized for not being ripped, at least not to the extent that women that don't adhere to the beauty ideal. Apparently the "Hulk ideal" doesn't have as much power as the "Big boobs, wasp waist" ideal that's being pushed upon women.


Also, the "stigma" that men are naturally good in certain, important things is in the end much more positive than it is negative. Men who're not proficient with mechanics are seen as having chosen a different path. everyone assumes that if you can't fix your car that is because you had other things to do than to learn how to fix it. On the other hand, women are told that no matter how much time they'll spend learning anything, they won't match the level of men because men are naturally more talented than they are.

[Vector]

^ Yeah, this.  Both for Scriver and Virex.

Edit: Maybe I'm just seeing ghosts here though. It just doesn't sit right with me that so many people are apparently in love with a country that's in some respects worse that 1850s America...

You are.  I'm not an idealist, but I can still take the good with the bad.  That is, I'm not someone who would call myself a weeaboo or an otaku.  I own a lot of comic books.  I've done martial arts, I speak the language, I read the novels, I was the president of a Japanese culture club, I've studied mythology, I can bow at the right angles, I own yukata and geta, all of that.

But I am not in love with the country.  I would never say "everything Japanese is inherently good," just as surely as I would never say "everything Japanese is inherently bad."  I am just trying to give it the respect and attention it is due.

[Andir]

These women we are talking about are not just idealisations, they are reduced to sexual objects, only there to titillate the boy readers.

If the female characters, regardless of their looks, really, were given actual character an purpose except looking good and showing off tits and ass, a big part of the problem would go away. Or at least, it would even out the difference between how men and women are portrayed somewhat.

Personally, I don't see it as any different than the pool boy in a romance novel...

Also, some of these books are not specifically written for "boys."  They can cover very mature themes.

Men don't get stigmatized for not being ripped, at least not to the extent that women that don't adhere to the beauty ideal. Apparently the "Hulk ideal" doesn't have as much power as the "Big boobs, wasp waist" ideal that's being pushed upon women.

They don't?  Bowflex commercials, the pool boy mentioned before, the stereotypical TV fat man who blunders around the house messing things up...

Also, the "stigma" that men are naturally good in certain, important things is in the end much more positive than it is negative. Men who're not proficient with mechanics are seen as having chosen a different path. everyone assumes that if you can't fix your car that is because you had other things to do than to learn how to fix it. On the other hand, women are told that no matter how much time they'll spend learning anything, they won't match the level of men because men are naturally more talented than they are.

Eh, I don't see that but maybe I'm not specifically looking for it.  (Not saying you are, but I haven't found a woman that thinks that she needs to have a wasp waist and big boobs.  In fact, many women I know think big boobs is a negative aspect.  "Big breasted, and dumb.")  There's a double standard (maybe) that women are critical of other women that have done this to themselves to make themselves feel attractive to men but are not critical to men to take up clothing design, where men can be critical of a man that takes up clothing design (or even architecture... not sure why, but I've observed this) while not being critical of a female that gets implants.  I think your problem is likening people to sex vs. labor.  For instance, women are generally more acceptable as gays than men.  Now, you can say that's an important distinction because labors are required and acceptable in society, but women are the only part of this society that can birth children so there's a very specific draw toward sexual necessity in women and I'd say it's an important part of life.  That's not human nature... that's nature.  Men actually get this too.  Erectile Dysfunction, Sterility, etc.  Though, for some reason it's cool?

Edit: I'd like to clarify that I'm not calling women baby factories who are good trait is sexual propagation like you would not call men item/repair factories who are only good at physical activity.

Edit2:

I think the stereotypical blundering fat man is more about the fat part than the man part.

Can you name 3 fat women on TV that blunder around breaking things?

[Vector]

I think the stereotypical blundering fat man is more about the fat part than the man part.

[Willfor]

Edit2:

I think the stereotypical blundering fat man is more about the fat part than the man part.

Can you name 3 fat women on TV that blunder around breaking things?

Please don't edit replies to questions under your post into the posts above. It makes trying to read these debates unnecessarily harder, and it makes it harder for people to know you've asked a question. Then further down the line when you ask if someone has ignored your because you did exactly this, and they didn't see it, it makes it look awkward for all parties.

TIA.

[Andir]

Edit2:

I think the stereotypical blundering fat man is more about the fat part than the man part.

Can you name 3 fat women on TV that blunder around breaking things?

Please don't edit replies to questions under your post into the posts above. It makes trying to read these debates unnecessarily harder, and it makes it harder for people to know you've asked a question. Then further down the line when you ask if someone has ignored your because you did exactly this, and they didn't see it, it makes it look awkward for all parties.

TIA.

Sorry.  It was a rare case.  (Also, I don't get riled up if someone ignores a question.  It's not in my nature... I don't expect replies to every specific detail.)

[Willfor]

Sorry.  It was a rare case.  (Also, I don't get riled up if someone ignores a question.  It's not in my nature... I don't expect replies to every specific detail.)

Fair enough.

[Vector]

Can you name three fat women on TV?

[Virex]

Can you name three fat women on TV?

Plenty

[kaijyuu]

Was that a joke, Virex? 'Cause I'm chuckling at your completely missing the point.


Vector's complaint is about this particular double standard and all it entails. Women, on TV and in movies, are almost always pretty good looking. Not all men are, though. This could mean one or several things.

- Men's available roles are wider in scope, allowing for "ugly" actors since there are no parts for "ugly" women.
- Women are only there as fanservice so of course they have to be pretty, regardless of role.
- "Ugly" men aren't seen in as negative a light as "ugly" women by the audience.


All three of those are true to some degree (though what degree is up for debate). That is the problem.

[TheBronzePickle]

It starts in the organization of Hollywood itself. Most of the directors, talent hunters and other higher-ups in Hollywood are men.

An unfortunate proportion of these men are shallow fucks that tend to judge women more by their body than by their talent.

A lot of the less shallow people are ordered to pander to what their bosses say, which usually results in them having to go by shallow standards.

[SalmonGod]

I think the issue is that it's another book saying "here is how the world is," falling short-sighted, concealing other ways of being.

... isn't Starfire an alien?

I agree with most of the outrage about how media influences culture which then influences how real women are treated.  This point just nagged at me.

[scriver]

She's a woman in everything except backstory.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, but it's still hard for me to accept the statement that the comic is a representation of how the world is.  It's not representing women.  It's representing an orange woman from another planet...

I totally agree that taking a pre-established positive role-model in the direction that they have was irresponsible and distasteful.  I just feel the need to balance things out when condemning statements start branching out a bit farther than I think they should -- claiming author intent that doesn't make much sense.  This statement would apply to tons and tons of other sexist media.  I just don't see it in this case.  Think of this as a grammar nazi moment.  I get the message and agree.  This detail just bugged me.

Edit:

Which brings up an interesting question I'd like to get a feminist perspective on.

Do the same expectations that apply to portrayals of human women in media apply universally?  Do women of fictional species or alternate dimensions need to live up to these expectations?

Let's say, for instance, there is a species of anthropomorphic praying mantis people, and its women are portrayed as predatory, cold, and calculating complete with literal man-devouring habits.  Would that be considered sexist?

And this question is an aside, not applicable to the case of Starfire, where I understand the problem as subverting a formerly tasteful and positive female role model.