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[Phmcw]

What, the US is turning into a violent police state? Wow, no one saw that coming.
1% of all American are in prison. 5% of black Americans are in prison. And you frigging let prisons be private (as in "for profit") establishments.
When will you wake up and realise you need to be united to defend your interests?
You need a real government, you need syndicates, you need new political parties, and us, Europeans, need to regenerate our owns.

Right now, in pretty much every topics, whether in the American press or this forum, there seems to be both a strange fatality about unions and governments (something like "big democratic structures will always be inefficient") and an incredible indulgence for the people in it ("the police and the army routinely hide the murder of civilian? give them a break there are good people in there too.) I mean you have a frigging shootage of policemen arresting a women IN FRONT OF THE MAYOR for SPEAKING ABOUT CORRUPTION IN THE POLICE despite being ordered by said mayor to release her. Where is that woman now?

here's a few link about that story.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/iz39b/woman_exposes_the_corruption_of_city_councilors/ http://www.azfamily.com/news/State-of-emergency-declared-in-Quartzsite-AZ-125394083.html http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/09/18/20110918arizona-small-towns-politics.html http://www.thedesertinde.com/Articles-2011/No-Mayor-for-Quartzsite--0923.html

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't live in the US, I live in Europe. Cops are not that much better here. I recall for instance how some cops wrestled a guy to the floor (a pot dealer, by the looks) and then proceeded to kick him while he was down.  Fastforward several years, and that same police department got a slap in the wrist because they decided to beat another guy (although more lightly) in front of a cctv camera.

[RedKing]

From my perspective, law enforcement (and soldiers, while we're at it) are more or less like any other demographic. Most are decent folks, some are really awesome, and some are total douchebags. I've interacted with all three categories. The main difference from regular demographics being that they carry weapons and the legal authority to use them.

[scriver]

What country are you from, Chairman? I'm not sure where Wharrgarbl is but it sounds kinda Atlantean. I didn't know there were still people down there after the Nazi-T-Rex invasion?

Anyway, over here, there's many people wanting the police to have more power to beat people up (often saying "they aren't even allowed to pull their guns when people threaten them"). I'm rather happy with their level of power. You don't hear much about beatings and such here, so either there's a really efficient cover up going on or the corruption is mostly white-collar shit. Because I'm not naive enough to not believe there is corruption among the police.

Well, actually, there was the thing back on the big EU meeting in Gothenburg where one of the violent protesters got shot in the back (as he was running away after having thrown a brick at the police) and a lot of peaceful protesters got locked up in a school, which even though the press was all over it (and it's come up several times since) never had any single police (in charge) take official responsibility for the mistreatment. I don't know if the shooter of the activist ever got any punishment either. Probably not, I think I would remember if he did.

-They had a racial basis in the US up until the 50's.

Drunken Irishmen are not a race.

[Pnx]

Also, do they hand pick the meanest ones to send to protests?

Thing is, when there's a protest going on it's "all hands on deck". Most of the time they behave respectably, but I can understand how the weak links break when the pressure's up. I have to admit a grudging sympathy for the police in these kinds of situations.

But this kind of thing can't be tolerated.
The habit of merely discharging or suspending officers guilty of major crimes is appalling.

[G-Flex]

From my perspective, law enforcement (and soldiers, while we're at it) are more or less like any other demographic. Most are decent folks, some are really awesome, and some are total douchebags. I've interacted with all three categories. The main difference from regular demographics being that they carry weapons and the legal authority to use them.

Regardless of demographics, when you give people the power to be total douchebags without holding them accountable, that generally creates a problem.

[ChairmanPoo]

Regardless of demographics, when you give people the power to be total douchebags without holding them accountable, that generally creates a problem.

Yeah, I think this is the underlying problem.

I think, in fact, that it applies to any situation where douchebaggery is possible. It's just that when violence is involved in the job, the results are more dramatic. A douchebaggish clerk might annoy you being obstructive, but won't in principle spray maze in your eyes.

[Bauglir]

I hope that wall street protest turns into a riot. Wouldn't it be a laugh if the stock exchange was completely destroyed?

No, because people would almost certainly die, many of whom probably wouldn't have it coming (for instance, protestors on the receiving end of police brutality). Maybe it would spark an ultimately good change. I can't see the future, and I won't insist that there's no chance it could wind up being a necessary evil that leads to a better world.

But a laugh? Fuck no.

[sluissa]

But this kind of thing can't be tolerated.
The habit of merely discharging or suspending officers guilty of major crimes is appalling.

I think if they were AT LEAST discharged when they had a major problem, then it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

I'm not talking about "bad call" problems. I'm talking about the situations like continuous beatings beyond the point of resistance, ignoring quite clear rules that caused a serious incident or being caught driving drunk.

If they were actually fired after a screwup like this... Granted, they should be in jail based on the system for everyone else, but if they were simply fired. It would make it clear that it wasn't acceptable, and if it ever happened again, jail would be waiting.

Making a bad call in the heat of the moment is one thing. That's regrettable, but understandable. I think the big problem is with some officers doing things they know are wrong, but doing them anyway, and repeatedly, just because they know they can get away with it.

[SalmonGod]

I think the "problem" is clearly described in the Stanford Prison and Milgram Experiments, whose lessons are far too often forgotten or neglected...

As for demographics or prejudice... being a cop isn't something a person has no control over.  It involves specific motivations, decisions, personality criteria, and prolonged efforts to end up in that position.  The institution itself is a symbol of various concepts and broad implications.  So I think it's safe to assume that demographics are significantly narrowed as applies to police officers vs people in general or even people in most other professions.  I think it's also fair to apply generalizations based on repeated behaviors and the institution's official attitudes regarding those repeated behaviors.  As a generalization, it isn't supposed to apply to every single police officer in existence, but the majority of them.

Also, do they hand pick the meanest ones to send to protests?

Thing is, when there's a protest going on it's "all hands on deck". Most of the time they behave respectably, but I can understand how the weak links break when the pressure's up. I have to admit a grudging sympathy for the police in these kinds of situations.

So what do you have to say on the subject of agent provocateurs?... or the pre-planned, calculated, and completely intentional systematic violation of rights at every single one of these events?  It can't all be blamed on pressure...

[ChairmanPoo]

being a cop isn't something a person has no control ove

It depends. A friend of mine became a cop because after dropping out of university -twice- he saw it as the most decent job avaiable to him

[kaijyuu]

Imperfect as they may be, there's options to deal with the thug in the blue uniform. Without the police, there would be no options to deal with the thug who wants to just mug me.

This is actually the exact opposite of how I see it.  The thug is just an individual.  The uniform is an institution.  Am I really supposed to believe that I have a greater chance of defending myself against the latter?

And just how do you defend yourself against the latter? Do you carry a weapon? Are you physically capable? Or do you depend on someone else to protect you (ie, the police), like most people?


If we assume both the mugger and the cop are breaking the law and being violent for no good reason, then you're absolutely right that the cop is less likely to face accountability for their crime. The difference though, is that the cop has a code of conduct they are supposed to follow. The mugger does not. I have more reason to believe the dude with a badge and a gun won't abuse their power than the dude with a knife and a need for cash. How much more reason is a matter for debate, of course...

Oh my god I can't believe I almost missed the monolithic irony of the claim that we can defend ourselves against a uniformed officer better than a street thug in a conversation started by the case of a completely defenseless man getting beaten to death in the street by a gang of uniforms as several people stand around watching with the likely excuse that they were powerless to do anything about it.

I never said they were powerless, just acting... typical of humanity. You can continue to be condescending to them if you wish; they're not blameless, after all.



Here's the disconnect between us:

Your argument is that the police are corrupt and can evade accountability. I don't disagree with that. My argument is that without them, EVERYONE escapes accountability. Except, of course, what you can hold them accountable for with your fists. Not better.

There's no point to laws without a means to enforce them. Someone needs the power to do that; the watchers need to exist. Who watches them is always going to be a good question, and one worthy of investigation. But, going back to what sparked this, assuming that the watchers are all evil thugs out to overpower you for kicks is ridiculous.

As should be obvious, I'm not too tolerant of blanket statements, generalizations, and other forms of prejudice, regardless of who it's directed to. You wanna call someone a thug, they better damn well be a thug, not just wearing the same uniform as another dude who actually was one.

[Bauglir]

As should be obvious, I'm not too tolerant of blanket statements, generalizations, and other forms of prejudice, regardless of who it's directed to. You wanna call someone a thug, they better damn well be a thug, not just wearing the same uniform as another dude who actually was one.

This has basically been my point in my posts, too. "Fuck the police" is stupid. "Fuck the assholes, some of whom happen to be police" is acceptable, as long as we're not taking the word "assholes" literally, because I'm not sure I could handle a world in which disembodied assholes could wear uniforms somehow. Similarly the word "fuck".

[Bohandas]

I don't think it's even a problem of most cops being bad people. I think the nature of the job, and the corporativist reactions they have when bad things do happen, predispose to situations which can get ugly.

Are you referring to the fact that there's too much solidarity among law enforcement officers, or to the fact that they're sellouts to corporate interests? Because these are both problems.

[SalmonGod]

And just how do you defend yourself against the latter? Do you carry a weapon? Are you physically capable? Or do you depend on someone else to protect you (ie, the police), like most people?

1.  The existence of a police force and complex legal system makes people passive.  They feel less personal communal responsibility in an emergency, because it's someone else's job.  They also worry about how their actions will legally reflect upon them.  I recognize that this is highly debatable.

2.  While the ability to defend oneself against a common thug may be highly dependent on many factors, it is at least possible.  No one will fault you for self-defense against a thug, and witnesses to the act might even help you out. 

The ability to defend oneself (in an immediate context) against an ill-intentioned officer is non-existent.  They are almost guaranteed to be better armed/trained and operate in groups.  Society does NOT expect you to fight back, even if your life is in danger, and even if you succeed in doing so, such an attempt makes you a target of all society's institutions.  To justify your own self-defense against an officer is to weigh yourself against an institution that has the material support of almost everyone (willing or unwilling), the media, and the ingrained cultural preconceptions of most people who automatically assume you are a criminal because you found yourself at odds with police.  Witnesses to the event are incredibly unlikely to assist in any fashion.  Your only option is to be a victim and seek unlikely recompense after the fact.


3. 

The mugger does not. I have more reason to believe the dude with a badge and a gun won't abuse their power than the dude with a knife and a need for cash.

The mugger (unless part of a gang, which still won't be as powerful as the police force) doesn't have the backup that a police officer does.  They are alone.  Their actions will reflect what they believe they can get away with as an individual, which is most definitely not the same as what someone carrying a badge will believe they can get away with.

I never said they were powerless, just acting... typical of humanity. You can continue to be condescending to them if you wish; they're not blameless, after all.

I don't mean to demonize them.  I don't expect everyone to be a reckless wide-eyed idealist.  I definitely don't feel bad about being a little condescending.  They do deserve at least a little blame for what happened.  So do I, for cowardly remaining in this office instead of being more activisit.  I hide behind the excuse that I have a diabetic kid who requires siginificant stability in his life to survive.

Here's the disconnect between us:

As should be obvious, I'm not too tolerant of blanket statements, generalizations, and other forms of prejudice, regardless of who it's directed to. You wanna call someone a thug, they better damn well be a thug, not just wearing the same uniform as another dude who actually was one.

Here's my take on our disconnect.

I have no tolerance for complicity.  If the majority of cops were at least decent people, they would easily be in a position to do something about the corrupt elements among them.  The fact that they don't makes them not decent people.  I can accept the claim that a minority of them are decent people, and as such aren't in much of a position to do anything about the corruption of their peers.


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Also