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[Bohandas]

That's pretty damn unfair to the officers who actually want to make a positive difference.

After everything I've seen, I'm starting to doubt that people like that actually exist. I've never seen them.

I'm sympathetic with your position buddy, but this is a pretty flimsy argument. I could mirror it without lying or being sarcastic and carry the same weight.

 And before statistics come firing up, I do wonder if somebody has statistics on how many officers are dishonorably discharged compared to how many assaults go unenforced.

I was with you up until you decided to use the number of officers actually discharged as a metric. Again, quis custodiet ipsos custodes*?


*_{("Who will watch the watchers?")}

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's pretty damn unfair to the officers who actually want to make a positive difference.

After everything I've seen, I'm starting to doubt that people like that actually exist. I've never seen them.

Go to your local police station and ask one why they chose their profession.

I'm not getting anywhere near a police station. The last thing I need is to spend a week in a holding cell for "Disturbing the Peace", "Obstructing Justice", or "Slander" because I happened to run into a sociopath on the force. You might call that paranoia, but a lot of people would have told you that thinking the cops would beat and shock a non-resisting mentally ill man to death is also paranoia. Or killing someone who crashed on a motorcycle after a police chance because they slammed them against the pavement in order to "subdue" them despite said crash inflicting life-threatening injuries. Or breaking into an innocent veteran's home and murdering him on a hint that he could be involved in *gasp* the marijuana trade. Or any of the other countless, horrible, senseless, insane acts committed by so-called public servants.

[kaijyuu]

Your sweeping generalizations and guilt-by-association accusations are pretty disgusting.

Wake up, dude. Blaming everyone for the acts of a few is the exact train of logic every racist, sexist, and otherwise prejudicial individual ever uses.


You can call for increased regulation, and I'll probably agree with you. You can call for the murderers and brutes to be brought to justice, and I'll definitely be on your side. But you cannot insult and degrade people who don't deserve it without me calling bullshit.

[Bauglir]

Well, when was the last episode of police brutality in your area, MSH? Some quick googling should reveal the answer, if you don't already know it. I mean, if they've actually got a history of it then I can totally understand being wary of them, although generalizations of the entire body are really over-the-top. The cops I've talked to have all been pretty decent people, which clearly undermines your generalization without denying that there are awful things done in the name of the "law" that need to be dealt with.

[SalmonGod]

In Indiana we've had two cases in the last three years of officers driving drunk on the clock.  In the last one, the guy plowed (sirens blaring) into a group of four motorcyclists sitting at a red light, killing one of them and critically injuring two others.  There is overwhelming evidence and the IMPD's own admission that the guy had a .19 blood alcohol level at the time and testimony from the cashier who sold him the alcohol, but the charges were dropped for almost a year because the other officers on the scene waited too long to get his blood drawn and took him to a lab tech who wasn't certified to draw blood for a dui.  The case has been re-opened based on another vial of blood that wasn't considered in the original case, but is speculated to be dropped again.  The IMPD has been supportive of Bisard, and their fraternal order has covered all of his legal fees, while he remains only suspended from the force.  This guy is also one of the main figures in another local case of police brutality, yet at the same time is one of their most decorated officers.  Three of the officers who were on the scene and mishandled the situation were originally demoted, but two of those have recently been promoted, one of them to run their own district.

Where are the good cops in all this?  Remaining meekly quiet while they go about their daily positive influence routine of manning one of the many obvious speed traps in the area?

Edit:

Also, do they hand pick the meanest ones to send to protests, or is it just coincidence that at every major protest event, there is overwhelming violation of rights and brutality and complete complicity of all officers involved?  Except for the chief of police who resided over the Battle in Seattle and then quit shortly afterwards to right a book protesting police attitudes and strategies...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Your sweeping generalizations and guilt-by-association accusations are pretty disgusting.

Innocent people dying to the police is not some rare incident. It happens every day, all across the US. Some other nations have it somewhat better, others have it way, way, way worse. But no matter what system, the problem remains. I don't understand how you can't be outraged by this. Innocents dying, constantly, to the acts of people who are supposed to make society safe.

Wake up, dude. Blaming everyone for the acts of a few is the exact train of logic every racist, sexist, and otherwise prejudicial individual ever uses.

Prejudice involves judging people without taking their actions into consideration. The actions of the police are the exact reason why I judge them. That they simply are police does not, in and of itself, factor in.

But you cannot insult and degrade people who don't deserve it without me calling bullshit.

I know what I've seen, and what the police as an entity have done. They deserve insults and degradation because they've earned it.

Also, do they hand pick the meanest ones to send to protests?

This, by the way. Jittery cops with itchy trigger fingers have probably caused more riots than actual self-starting rioters. Not to mention that the power rests with the police themselves to make the distinction between a "lawful protest" and "rioters, attack everyone!". There's some brilliant oversight for you. With that in place, the Right to Assembly doesn't exist in practical terms.

[kaijyuu]

@Salmon
Concerning all that, well, just look at what Bohandas has been trying to say: Who watches the watchers?


As idealist as I am, I must point out most people won't be the good samaritan and stand up for others if they fear retribution. That's why you didn't see anyone stop the murder that started this conversation. That's why you don't see cops ratting out their fellow officers; their badge is on the line too. Even beyond that, "snitching" is somehow considered a bad thing in our society. Pop culture reference: Batman Begins, our heroic, idealistic, incorruptible cop Gordan says "I'm no rat!" and it's portrayed as a positive trait.


I'm all for further regulation; preferably something that doesn't equate to more mountains of paperwork. But then who watches the regulators? It's something that's impossible to avoid, but IMO superior to anarchy. The thug in the blue uniform with a badge, or the thug who wants my pocket change? Imperfect as they may be, there's options to deal with the thug in the blue uniform. Without the police, there would be no options to deal with the thug who wants to just mug me.

[kaijyuu]

Your sweeping generalizations and guilt-by-association accusations are pretty disgusting.

Innocent people dying to the police is not some rare incident. It happens every day, all across the US. Some other nations have it somewhat better, others have it way, way, way worse. But no matter what system, the problem remains. I don't understand how you can't be outraged by this. Innocents dying, constantly, to the acts of people who are supposed to make society safe.

The fact you don't see that I am outraged tells me a lot.

Stop blinding yourself. I'm as disgusted as you are, here, but I don't let that get in the way of rational thought. I don't abandon my ideals to hate. The blood of the innocent is calling out for retribution, but answering that call blindly leads to nothing good. That is the path of the fear monger. That is the path of the lynch mob. Chasing blindly after retribution, failing to see the pitfalls... failing to see period.


I'm done with you until you steady your nerves.

[sluissa]

Had a somewhat long written out post that really nobody would read or listen to, so I'll replace it with this:

Some cops are bad. We could probably do more to make them better. However, overall, they do more good than harm. Generalizing is not going to get you any points with anyone when you lump all the good cops in with the bad cops and call them all terrible freedom hating, law breaking machines.

They do plenty of good things along with the uncommon, but generally well reported bad things.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The thug in the blue uniform with a badge, or the thug who wants my pocket change? Imperfect as they may be, there's options to deal with the thug in the blue uniform.

No there aren't. In the vast, vast majority of cases, police can get off from anything with a slap on the wrist at worst. They protect each other, cartel style, and juries eat it up because they believe them to be trustworthy for simply being cops. If it even gets to court, police precincts seem to really like getting the disciplinary actions against an officer ruled as being in their court, since they can just let them off effectively scott-free.

Without the police, there would be no options to deal with the thug who wants to just mug me.

There's the Right to Bear Arms, for one. But no, getting rid of the police entirely would just be handing power from one gang to another. The only solution is to purge the police force of the elements that corrupt it at all levels and then impose real restrictions upon them, but that will never happen until people start to see the police for what they really are. I have no idea if that will ever happen, but people seem more fed up with them every year that passes by, and rightfully so. On the other hand, children usually get the idea of obedience to the Almighty Police Officer drilled into them from a young age by schools and children's media in general, so that probably counteracts the growing social dissatisfaction somewhat. Most eventually learn better, but I'm sure some don't.

I don't abandon my ideals to hate.

My ideals have not changed because of this. If anything, they are reinforced by the ever growing evidence of their necessity.

The blood of the innocent is calling out for retribution, but answering that call blindly leads to nothing good. That is the path of the fear monger. That is the path of the lynch mob. Chasing blindly after retribution, failing to see the pitfalls... failing to see period.

I never called for the police to be lynched, and I wouldn't. I don't believe in death as a punishment, to oppose the police for their murders and think more death is the answer would be hypocrisy.

[SalmonGod]

Imperfect as they may be, there's options to deal with the thug in the blue uniform. Without the police, there would be no options to deal with the thug who wants to just mug me.

This is actually the exact opposite of how I see it.  The thug is just an individual.  The uniform is an institution.  Am I really supposed to believe that I have a greater chance of defending myself against the latter?

This is a great opportunity to note another issue my state's been dealing with recently.  Judges ruled that it's illegal to resist an officer illegally entering your home.  They can show up at your doorstep and literally do anything they please, and it's illegal for you to oppose them.  Their justification for the ruling was that you can take it to court after the fact...

Edit:

Oh my god I can't believe I almost missed the monolithic irony of the claim that we can defend ourselves against a uniformed officer better than a street thug in a conversation started by the case of a completely defenseless man getting beaten to death in the street by a gang of uniforms as several people stand around watching with the likely excuse that they were powerless to do anything about it.

[Glowcat]

This is a great opportunity to note another issue my state's been dealing with recently.  Judges ruled that it's illegal to resist an officer illegally entering your home.  They can show up at your doorstep and literally do anything they please, and it's illegal for you to oppose them.  Their justification for the ruling was that you can take it to court after the fact...

Also, cops in many states have been doing their darndest to make video of them engaging in typical cop thuggery illegal, so as to cover their asses when evidence is brought to bear.

Anyone still under the illusion that there is equality or justice under the law needs to get their head checked. The American legal sphere needs to be purged from top (bought Supreme Court Justices) to bottom (lowly thugs who know they have protection from above). How many bodies need to pile up before people realize the institution itself is corrupt? Beating the mentally ill to death, executing a man on flimsy evidence because the charge was cop-killing, imprisoning people for profit, and attacking peaceful protesters are normal for what it has become. Our law enforcers need the very sanctions they are meant to steward.

[Bohandas]

I hope that wall street protest turns into a riot. Wouldn't it be a laugh if the stock exchange was completely destroyed?

[SalmonGod]

Also, cops in many states have been doing their darndest to make video of them engaging in typical cop thuggery illegal, so as to cover their asses when evidence is brought to bear.

I've heard about that.  At the same time, I heard the absolutely genius response that it's now our responsibility to take legal action anytime an officer is shown on video doing something positive.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't think it's even a problem of most cops being bad people. I think the nature of the job, and the corporativist reactions they have when bad things do happen, predispose to situations which can get ugly.