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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 871091 times)

Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5220 on: September 22, 2011, 08:25:01 pm »

1. It's not my idea.  It's not like it's something I can take credit for, snootily, and say "ah, yes, my thought is clearly superior."  It's something I've read in a large number of texts and think is true.
I've read some development stats for Latin America, and self-reported happiness is most correlated with a low gap between rich and poor. Rapid-growing economies tended to have falling happiness rates, and widening rich/poor gaps.

So, this begs the question what is it that we strive for (on a community level). Utilitarian spreading of happiness is a fairly decent way to measure success. We can't tell people how to be happy or what is "supposed" to make them happy.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 08:26:51 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5221 on: September 22, 2011, 10:18:37 pm »

That way lies Jeremy Bentham, and I am going to have to say "no."

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case I say "yes."
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Heron TSG

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5222 on: September 22, 2011, 11:29:56 pm »

From my point of view, Troy Davis should never have been on death row for shooting a single police officer.
Perhaps. But in Georgia, being convicted of killing a law enforcement officer is an instant death penalty.

I for one am against the death penalty, and have written letters to my State government about it on numerous occasions. In Washington, we have two choices - lethal injection or hanging, choice of the person to be killed. It's very rare, but all the same it should not exist. We've only executed 13 people in Washington, but that's 13 too many for my taste.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5223 on: September 23, 2011, 12:28:17 am »

What does erk me though, is the amount of people willing to support the death penalty when they are unwilling to actually execute someone themselves, and I find it hard to believe that many of those who say they would, would be able to take a needle, jab it into her or him, while he or she begs for mercy, and the family watches.

This, I think, is a point to make. It takes a lot of something -- guts, determination, whatever you want to call it -- to actually take the path of the lesser evil, because it's much more immediate. Condemning the irredeemable to a slow death via torture (read: incarceration) is a lot easier than just killing them. The effect isn't as immediate, even though it's a worse (To wit: Likely years of suffering, followed by death. As opposed to simply death, ideally as painless of one as possible. It's a death sentence either way, one just takes longer and has more hardship before it.) "vengeance" than just killing is. For some reason, this lack of immediacy seems to sooth most people's moral misgivings about killing someone. It doesn't sooth mine, unfortunately, which is why I do advocate execution over lifetime imprisonment. To me, it's the more moral -- or at least less immoral (if nothing else, the path of less harm) -- choice.

The genuine issue, as I see it, isn't about the killing of the irredeemable versus lifetime imprisonment (They're effectively the same thing, with the latter being crueler), it's about what the bloody hell the moral response to an irredeemably dangerous human being is. We haven't found a (moral, anyway. Lobotomies or dismemberment might work!) way to make it so these people aren't a threat (and often a deadly one) to our communities, and so our moral compasses seem to implode.

The only options I can see are to fix the problem (i.e. neutralize whatever it is about the individual that makes them a threat) -- which we can't seem to do and can't afford to make a mistake in trying to do -- kill them quickly, or kill them slowly. When confronted with a choice of unworkable, immoral but workable, and more immoral but still workable, I can't see a rational choice to make besides option two, the choice of actual effectiveness and least harm.

It's a pisspoor situation, to say the least, and gods alive if only there was a 'workable but not immoral' option, but in a scenario where someone's been grievously harmed and the person who inflicted it is going to suffer (either through rehabilitation or death), I'd rather the net suffering be as little as possible and as thoroughly contained to the person who did the original harm as possible.

All that said, the Davis case did seem like a miscarriage of the legal system and it's damned enraging to see pissant technicalities put a human to death, especially one that, at least on the surface of things, looked innocent. But what to do about it? A person was just effectively murdered by the system, and the worse someone might be punished for it is disembarrment or (not life-time) imprisonment. We can (and should) try to prevent things like this from happening in the future, but for the present, how is that equitable? The effect (punishment) won't fit the cause (murder). Th'hell can a person genuinely do about this?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:30:09 am by Frumple »
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5224 on: September 23, 2011, 01:39:42 am »

Condemning the irredeemable to a slow death via torture (read: incarceration) is a lot easier than just killing them. The effect isn't as immediate, even though it's a worse (To wit: Likely years of suffering, followed by death. As opposed to simply death, ideally as painless of one as possible. It's a death sentence either way, one just takes longer and has more hardship before it.)

By this logic, allowing anyone to live is a "death sentence". Incarceration is not the same as killing someone. I'm sorry, but the inevitability of death does not make a life sentence a "death sentence". Death is not part of the sentence or a result of it.

Quote
The genuine issue, as I see it, isn't about the killing of the irredeemable versus lifetime imprisonment (They're effectively the same thing, with the latter being crueler)

Why don't you go ask some people with life sentences who have been in prison for ten years or so, and ask them if they'd rather die or stay imprisoned. As if it would be hard to off yourself in your average terrible prison.

If prison life is literally worse than death, then that's a problem with the prison system, not with prison per se. Personally, I'd rather lose my general freedom than die.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5225 on: September 23, 2011, 03:54:13 am »

Also, if new evidences come out that make clear the convict is innocent, it's much easier to free him than unkill him.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5226 on: September 23, 2011, 04:52:37 am »

Also, if new evidences come out that make clear the convict is innocent, it's much easier to free him than unkill him.
Yeah, the amount of paperwork and prayer involved is enormous. Unless you take the cheap solution, but the smell, loss of speech and the brains-only diet have upset quite a few families.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5227 on: September 23, 2011, 07:16:58 am »

By this logic, allowing anyone to live is a "death sentence". Incarceration is not the same as killing someone. I'm sorry, but the inevitability of death does not make a life sentence a "death sentence". Death is not part of the sentence or a result of it.

Then what is the difference? Either way, you're having pretty much every substantiative freedom taken away from you (You get to breath, and... kill yourself? I guess you get to decide if you sleep, or eat, or move around a bit. You might be able to opt in on some poorly recompensated labor.) and you're completely removed from society. How is breathing poorly in a box better than not breathing in a smaller box?

Why don't you go ask some people with life sentences who have been in prison for ten years or so, and ask them if they'd rather die or stay imprisoned. As if it would be hard to off yourself in your average terrible prison.

If prison life is literally worse than death, then that's a problem with the prison system, not with prison per se. Personally, I'd rather lose my general freedom than die.

As I said, immediacy.

You're going to suffer more by living without freedom and then dying, than simply dying. Humans don't react well to having certain freedoms removed -- even if one would normally choose to distance themselves from society, there's a helluva difference from making that choice on one's own and having it made for you. It screws with your head, plain and simple. Some -- hell, most, most likely -- people can learn to cope with that and readjust to it, but no one (not already thoroughly screwed up) comes out untouched.

But living in that situation seems like the better choice. It's easier to see 'not dead tomorrow' than it is to see 'shit life for next XX years', even if the overall experience of 'dead tomorrow' would cause less suffering for one's self in the long run. People are generally rather bad at making decisions based on long term scenarios. Chances are incredibly high you'd be better off (and overall happier) dead, but making that decision is incredibly hard (perhaps even impossible) for most people to make. Humans are pretty well wired for short-term survival, so you're having to cope with a lot of internal survival pressures, yeah.

Also, if new evidences come out that make clear the convict is innocent, it's much easier to free him than unkill him.

On this point: The ideal for the prison system is rehabilitation. No one that can be rehabilitated should be on death row or imprisoned for life, unless whatever action they performed is seen as one they cannot make restitution for -- and possibly not even then. Certainly many in this thread would say that if rehabilitation is at all possible, it should be allowed, regardless of the crime. An innocent person, I'd posit, is considerably easier to rehabilitate than one who is not. So unless the accused has some level of severe problem integrating with society regardless of their culpability in what their 'crime' is, they're not going to run the risk of life imprisonment or execution.

Obviously the current system (at least, or perhaps especially, in the USA) isn't trying to do that, but that's a different (if strongly related) discussion.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5228 on: September 23, 2011, 08:16:11 am »

Quote
The genuine issue, as I see it, isn't about the killing of the irredeemable versus lifetime imprisonment (They're effectively the same thing, with the latter being crueler)

Why don't you go ask some people with life sentences who have been in prison for ten years or so, and ask them if they'd rather die or stay imprisoned. As if it would be hard to off yourself in your average terrible prison.

If prison life is literally worse than death, then that's a problem with the prison system, not with prison per se. Personally, I'd rather lose my general freedom than die.
Judicial punishment is supposed to be punishment.  Some people would continue doing bad things if the punishment was not "great".  Some even continue those acts while in prison.  Loss of freedom alone is not punishment (IMHO, some people seek out that controlled structure) ... I'd rather look for a way to rehab the person, but we don't have a proven/full-proof way to do that.  (How do you integrate someone in a system they don't like/want?)  Everyone has tried, multiple methods, multiple times.  If the choices are loss of freedom and total dependence on the system for life or quick death, loss of freedom is rather lenient and sometimes preferred by some to living outside or even death.

It would be different if freedom was ultimately rewarding.  That seems to be less and less so each day.
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5229 on: September 23, 2011, 08:27:59 am »

Judicial punishment is supposed to be punishment.  Some people would continue doing bad things if the punishment was not "great". Some even continue those acts while in prison.  Loss of freedom alone is not punishment (IMHO, some people seek out that controlled structure)

Loss of freedom isn't punishment? Call me strange, but most people don't exactly enjoy losing their basic rights as a human being. That is, in fact, part of the punishment. Lack of autonomy is harsh to just about anyone. Some people might seek out prison for one reason or another, but then again, some people might seek getting flogged with sharp instruments, but I'd still consider that a "punishment".

Also: "Judicial punishment is supposed to be punishment". Please back this up. If you're going to say what punishment should be and why, you'd better be able to back it up!

Also: Yes, some people continue to do bad things given a certain level of punishment. This is true for all levels of punishment; where do you draw the line? Evidently, some people will continue to do bad things no matter what punishment exists.

Quote
... I'd rather look for a way to rehab the person, but we don't have a proven/full-proof way to do that.  (How do you integrate someone in a system they don't like/want?)  Everyone has tried, multiple methods, multiple times.  If the choices are loss of freedom and total dependence on the system for life or quick death, loss of freedom is rather lenient and sometimes preferred by some to living outside or even death.

If life on the outside is worse than spending your entire life in prison, then the problem isn't prison, it's the state of life on the outside, and we should seek to improve that. Rehabilitative-style imprisonment is also still a fairly new idea. Hell, even the idea that prisoners should be treated humanely is pretty new. You can't expect anyone to be terribly good at it yet.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5230 on: September 23, 2011, 08:28:32 am »

It would be different if freedom was ultimately rewarding.  That seems to be less and less so each day.
This. A prison where you have guaranteed free food, shelter and health care isn't so great a deterrent when none of those things is guaranteed or free in the outside world.

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5231 on: September 23, 2011, 08:31:21 am »

It would be different if freedom was ultimately rewarding.  That seems to be less and less so each day.
This. A prison where you have guaranteed free food, shelter and health care isn't so great a deterrent when none of those things is guaranteed or free in the outside world.

Then act like a sane society and guarantee those to the people living in your country?
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5232 on: September 23, 2011, 12:26:32 pm »

Then act like a sane society and guarantee those to the people living in your country?

A sane society? We're executing (probably) innocent people over here and our congress can't even vote "YES" on preventing utter economic ruin. Do we look sane?
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5233 on: September 23, 2011, 12:40:37 pm »

And no country in the world can provide an effective means of ensuring everyone has enough to eat. Someone on these forums regularly goes without food in Ireland I think? There are various systems in place to make sure people don't starve but to provide such resources for so many people the logistics feed towards a degraded social situation. This goes similarly for shelter and health care, the last on the list being particularly difficult to provide even for countries with the best systems.
 
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #5234 on: September 23, 2011, 01:08:36 pm »

Difficult?  Sure.  But perfectly possible.
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