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[sluissa]

While I will say that this does happen to some men, I'd guess it's a very small minority.

I do agree with this article, and agree that by and large, women are almost the exclusive recipient of attitudes like this because of cultural conditioning along with other factors. I don't know if I'm fit to comment on it though. I'm almost certain I've done it before, it seems too easy, too simply reactionary for me to have not done it at some point in the past, but I struggle to remember a specific situation.

I can remember one recent situation, but I really think this was more of problem of the internet in transmitting sarcasm than this, but I'd like others opinions to see if I truly was in the wrong.

A friend of mine was staying up late due to various responsibilities. She commented that she might only get 3 or 4 hours of sleep that night. Jokingly I said something along the lines of, "well, that's more than enough." I really did sympathize with her, but she got mad and didn't talk to me for the rest of the night. Things are fine now, and I realize that maybe I wasn't communicating clearly enough that it was a joke, and maybe the joke was in poor taste, but now I wonder if the way I tried to simply brush it off as a joke was a case of this.

I admit this is a deeply rooted problem in some cases. I'm just curious how deeply rooted. Is this one of those things that even after being told that it happens, that it's still hard to recognize as a behavior? Or am I just being paranoid? (Another behavior that I admittedly do and occasionally relish in)

[kaijyuu]

Just for clarification, as I'm having trouble pinpointing the problem and how it applies almost exclusively to women:

It goes on about "gaslighting." Am I correct in saying it's pretty much real-life trolling? Say something inflammatory, and once you get an emotional response, tear them down.

[scriver]

removed because afterthought invalidated it.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

I don't quite get how the author blames men for doing this intentionally.

he doesn't. in fact, in the article, it's implied several times explicit that this is done unconsciously.
____

i'm not sure i agree with the article on the explanation that is proposed. i agree it's a recognisable phenomena, and that it contributes to undermine women status in our society, but i wouldn't say it happens because men are conditioned to dismiss a woman's opinion as inferior, as is implied on the article, but would instead explain it as a clash of what effectively amounts to two different cultures: the stereotypical behaviour males are conditioned to adhere is generally less emotive than the one women are conditioned to adhere, and i would explain the phenomena as genuine confusion on the part of the male when faced with a different behaviour from the one he was raised to have. the women's equivalent would be the comment "you're so insensitive", that is generally less hurtful, possibly because male gender is already well established as dominant

[GlyphGryph]

Well, further evidence that me and my girl swap a lot of our roles...
While my girlfriend is thankfully pretty susceptible to emotional manipulation, I'm far closer to being the "over-emotional" one. I don't think she's ever said anything close to "“Forget it, it’s okay.”, while I find that pouring out of my mouth constantly. While we are both oversensitive to the point of absurdity, the difference is that she has to be one of the most emotionally stubborn people I know - meaning I'm always the first to realize we're fighting about something stupid and pointless, or that she's not saying what she did to hurt me on purpose and it certainly isn't worth starting a fight, and thus I've got to be the one to figure out how to calm her down and end it. Not to say she doesn't emotionally manipulate me, I can be played like a goddamn fiddle, I just don't think she does it intentionally.

She will ocassionally admit that she overreacted, but I do not think she has ever gone so far as to indicate the opinion expressed was either wrong or not worth expressing. But then again, she's not really a normal lady anymore than I am a normal guy.

So what do I draw from my personal experience? I think its more about stubbornness, self-confidence, and willingness to capitulate to avoid conflict than it is actually about gender. I've seen guys explode just as often as I've seen it from women, so I'm not sure if being oversensitive is actually a relevant factor, though the way each gender is encouraged to present their emotions may be.
It just so happens women women are shaped by society to have a lot more of the last one, in general, while men are encouraged to have a lot more of the first two. I think its a... symptom, really, of socialization, and the cause (people wanting to badger others into emotionally submissive positions) doesn't have a large gender-focused component in and of itself.

I dunno, maybe I'm completely off base. I know anecdote isn't data and all that. I just thought I'd share my experience.

[TheBronzePickle]

There was an article I read in school where they studied the patterns of speech between men and between women, and then studied what happened when they clashed.

It was shown that both men and women talk about their feelings, but men tend to talk in a detatched way, usually seeming to put their attention away from the person they're talking to even though they were actually listening. Women, on the other hand, are very direct in their discussion, facing the other participant straight on.

Men also tended to be dismissive towards each other's plights, making each other feel better by stating that their problems weren't that bad.
Women tend to act more supportive, sympathizing with one another as encouragement.

Obviously this is just observation, and it's still unknown how much is nature and how much is taught.

[Bauglir]

Just for clarification, as I'm having trouble pinpointing the problem and how it applies almost exclusively to women:

It goes on about "gaslighting." Am I correct in saying it's pretty much real-life trolling? Say something inflammatory, and once you get an emotional response, tear them down.

Essentially, yeah, only it's in this case not actually the goal. Usually, the inflammatory stuff is "all in good fun" or similar; it's not intended to be inflammatory, it just seemed funny or appropriate for the situation because the barb wasn't aimed at the speaker (so a lack of empathy here), and then when you get a response you want to defend yourself, and you know you weren't trying to be insulting so what's the problem?

There are a lot of situations where I think it would be better to remember that people don't react to what you tried to do, but to what you did. It doesn't erase all responsibility to have done something wrong accidentally, which is why it's important to take care to make as few mistakes as possible and work to correct the ones that do happen. Possibly this is tangential to the discussion of interest, though.

[Mindmaker]

It was shown that both men and women talk about their feelings, but men tend to talk in a detatched way, usually seeming to put their attention away from the person they're talking to even though they were actually listening.

I'd also say that men are allowed to express fewer of their feelings when talking to each other.
Even with a friend that is more sensitive (not as much as me, but probably a lot more than regular men), we it's being kept quite shallow.

Stupid gender. Always comes in the way in satisfying ones needs.
In this case the need to express ones feelings.

[Vector]

It's not just "male culture," by the way, because the guys I know in the math department and many other places just don't do it.  We trash-talk each other, I make fun of the guy's hair, he calls me a bitch, it's all good.  That usual interaction, though, takes into account teasing that is just too hard and too nasty.  When someone says something that might be seen as way too nasty, they immediately whisper "just kidding," and we get back to insulting each other.

And the thing with guys, is that it seems a lot of the "animosity" and insults are just for fun, most of the time.  It's on a similar level.

But there is this thing that can often happen with women where they speak seriously and get called all sorts of names.  I don't know what men expect when they say things like "A woman could never _________, she's too damn emotional!  Get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich, bitch!"  (Note: I only expect men to say things like this on the internet, and their derivatives in real life).  Do they expect us to make fun back?  Say something nasty about men?  Say "We're only making your sandwiches because you're too fucking stupid to slap peanut butter on a couple slices of bread?"

Basically, what I'm saying is that I think the behavioral explanation requires some sort of expected response from the partner, because otherwise it is just one-sided instead of a paired insulting activity.  I don't mind kidding around a little even when I'm extremely upset, but I'll eventually say "Look, sorry, I really need to talk to you about this instead of joking right now."  But after that, most everything someone says is taken on the serious side, and the "takebacks" just seem unfair.  People screw up.  I've screwed up and said things that were just too hurtful, and usually people say "what, are you saying ________," and then I say "Augh, fuck, no, I'm so sorry."  But this sort of behavior... I really do think it is uniquely distinct.  The takebacks aren't necessary, only constantly undermining someone else's emotional reactions, shifting blame to them whenever possible, etc.  By the end, you feel so unbearably crazy.  I can't even really explain it, at this point.  It's just dreadful.

[Bauglir]

That makes sense. You're saying that it's not a real takeback if somebody is just saying that the insulting interpretation is wrong, because that person is defending what was actually said, right? Saying, "Hey, I was totally within my rights there, you're just trying to pick a fight." Or something like that. There's a pretty wide difference between that and "Augh, fuck, no, I'm so sorry", in that the latter isn't just a veiled insult, but seems to be an actual genuine apology.

[Andir]

I don't quite get how the author blames men for doing this intentionally.

he doesn't. in fact, in the article, it's implied several times explicit that this is done unconsciously.

Hmm, I guess after I read this sentence, I read it into the rest of the article:
"This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting."  Probably because I read, "You're so stupid," and equated it to, "You're silly/crazy/etc."

[Vector]

That makes sense. You're saying that it's not a real takeback if somebody is just saying that the insulting interpretation is wrong, because that person is defending what was actually said, right? Saying, "Hey, I was totally within my rights there, you're just trying to pick a fight." Or something like that. There's a pretty wide difference between that and "Augh, fuck, no, I'm so sorry", in that the latter isn't just a veiled insult, but seems to be an actual genuine apology.

Exactly.  They're not at all changing what they said, they're just attacking again.


EDIT: And to add to what we're discussing here, I thought I'd just link these:

Autism Speaks for you, right?

Another article.

[kaijyuu]

Just for clarification, as I'm having trouble pinpointing the problem and how it applies almost exclusively to women:

It goes on about "gaslighting." Am I correct in saying it's pretty much real-life trolling? Say something inflammatory, and once you get an emotional response, tear them down.

Essentially, yeah, only it's in this case not actually the goal. Usually, the inflammatory stuff is "all in good fun" or similar; it's not intended to be inflammatory, it just seemed funny or appropriate for the situation because the barb wasn't aimed at the speaker (so a lack of empathy here), and then when you get a response you want to defend yourself, and you know you weren't trying to be insulting so what's the problem?

Righto. So this problem is far from exclusive to women... HOWEVER, women get it directed at them because they're women. It's the good ol' get back in the kitchen "jokes," and things of that nature.

So yeah, I can totally get behind that article then.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

I don't quite get how the author blames men for doing this intentionally.

he doesn't. in fact, in the article, it's implied several times explicit that this is done unconsciously.

Hmm, I guess after I read this sentence, I read it into the rest of the article:
"This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting."  Probably because I read, "You're so stupid," and equated it to, "You're silly/crazy/etc."

this is the paragraph in question

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Today, when the term is referenced, it’s usually because the perpetrator says things like, “You’re so stupid” or “No one will ever want you” to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyer’s character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergman’s character into believing herself unhinged.

in which the author explains the usual meaning of the expression. this is the paragraph that follows it

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The form of gaslighting I’m addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.

in which the author clearly detaches himself from that meaning.

[Bauglir]

Righto. So this problem is far from exclusive to women... HOWEVER, women get it directed at them because they're women. It's the good ol' get back in the kitchen "jokes," and things of that nature.

So yeah, I can totally get behind that article then.

That, and responding to it at all is often taken to be a "womanly" trait, so even if the original behavior had nothing to do with being a woman, there's a lot more ammunition for the second part.