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[Mindmaker]

Yeah, I'm getting that. Still not seeing it, though.

[kaijyuu]

Yeah, I'm getting that. Still not seeing it, though.

Me either, but hey. Maybe Vector will feel better soon and be able to defend the claim. I at least am open to criticism.

Part of them problem I think, for both sides, is that men are generally just told to deal with it. From the time they're children and on. Boys aren't supposed to cry or complain. They're supposed to stand up to bullying rather than seek protection. Men are supposed to deal with hazing as they enter a new tightly knit social group. I'm sure there are others, but I'm running out of time to do this post. In any case, on to my point. Because of these situations, men are taught to not complain, and thus you have social problems with men too, but you don't hear nearly as much of it: A: Simply because it isn't reported. and B: Because the (generally more severe) problems the other groups have tend to overshadow any that might come to light.

Gold star for you

I hate double standards. All of them.

[scriver]

*shrug*

Guess I shouldn't have posted it.

Oh, I guess I should've made clearer that I agree with the point she is making in "the rest" (that is, the whole of it) of her post, I just got hung up on that little piece of it, which probably just was a mistake on her part (that is, I believe it is pretty obvious she meant to say "harassment on gender basing is a woman's issue" rather than just harassment, being how illogical it would be to say anything else after the boyfriend-example she just gave above), and since how sexual harassment is mostly what the rest of her post is about.

So yeah, in retrospect, it's rather dickish, and dare I say derailing of us as well to let such a thing overshadow the rest of her post, but it struck a nerve in me (the whole "men cannot be victims" thing, even though it is irrelevant to the article as a whole) and I needed to vent. I'm apologise for needlessly doing so in your thread.

[Andir]

I guess my main concern is the acceptance factor (touched upon by a few people here) is being targeted as evil when I think it should be accepted (or at worked with).  Society has certain constructs that assist it in moving forward.  Such that certain actions are rewarded socially.

Take dating for example.  Men are rewarded by other people for taking initiative and asking women out.  It's expected of them and it's rewarded by their parents, family, co-workers, and sometimes friends.  Men are rewarded for consummating with women for a certain reason (I personally feel it's rooted in propagation of the species.)  Etc.  When a woman does it, it's becoming more widely accepted but there's still a societal scar on the woman being "aggressive".

There's two extremes you can look at in this.  You continue to treat aggressive women like outcasts and assume that the acts of aggression should be stifled or you can celebrate it.  This is not necessarily "on the shoulders" of men.  Woman can celebrate those actions.  (ie: You can back her post and expand on topics.  Don't shy away and conform.)

Most of the talk so far has led me to believe people want to stifle aggressive behavior (acting out, stepping up) instead of boosting it.  (And I think this leads to many people alienating each other for performing the tasks required of them by society in general.)  You can view my post about the story as a stifling post or you can read it as an addendum.  I would prefer if you read it as an addendum and not look at it as if I'm being overly critical because she's female.  Of course, I can't change your perception but I do not believe I was being critical of her message... only a part of it.

You can attempt to change society's requirements/perceptions (good luck) or you can play along, focus on more core issues, and tackle them one at a time.

[Vector]

The problem with that, as much as I really, truly, honestly appreciate your politeness, is that the general assumption is that for women to be accepted, they need to act more like men.  That sticks the conditioned female behavior where it always has been-- negatively perceived.

Frankly, I don't feel like going out to prove you wrong today.  I am using my "must always be correct" skills and exhaustion on my math problem sets.

[kaijyuu]

Spoiler: Probably an unrelated tangent, as I still haven't read the original article (click to show/hide)

The problem with that, as much as I really, truly, honestly appreciate your politeness, is that the general assumption is that for women to be accepted, they need to act more like men.  That sticks the conditioned female behavior where it always has been-- negatively perceived.

I know this is direct at Ander, but I'll take a stab at it.

IMO the real problem is there exists such a thing as stereotypical female behavior. To use an extremely stereotypical example: It's not that standing on a chair afraid of a rat is a bad thing; it's that standing on a chair afraid of a rat is considered a woman thing (and yes I realize it only really happens in movies/etc, not real life, and not so much anymore). Why do/did we make that association ? Why is it acceptable for one gender but not the other? How do we get rid of such bullshit ideas?

Yeah yeah someone's gonna yell at me that there are behavioral traits that follow gender lines that can't be fully explained by cultural influence. My point is that shouldn't even be considered, since it doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with an aggressive female (or one with other stereotypically "masculine" traits), just as there's nothing wrong with a timid female. As long as these behaviors are popularly associated with gender, there will always be stereotypes, and thus always double standards.


She's standing on a chair afraid of a rat. Pay it no heed as that's just what women do. That guy over there's doing it to; let's laugh at him because he's obviously not manly.
She's asking a guy out on a date rather than having him ask her. Let's look down on her for it. That guy's asking a girl out; what a hero.

Bullshit. All of it.

[Vector]

I agree with you completely.

[Siquo]

the general assumption is that for women to be accepted, they need to act more like men.

That in itself is an assumption. What (I think) Andir is saying: the more a woman behaves like a man, the less she'll be accepted, while your gripe is that the norm for a woman is viewed as inferior to the norm of man.

So (I'm realising this aloud) you're in a Catch-22 as a woman: Doing what you're supposed to is inferior, and trying to step out and beyond is going to get you kicked even more. Well, at least Andir has shown his merit in the topic (not that there wasn't any, but people have hinted at that): only now I get what that whole feminism thing is about.

[Vector]

Oh.  Yeah.

I wish I'd managed to make that clear somehow =/  Good on Andir, though, and many thanks to him!

[Andir]

I wish I had made it more clear.  I understand that there's a barrier and I'm not trying to be overly direct at what you should do.  I tend to read things in third person (implied observer?) and that probably leads me to write in the same way.  I generally don't connect statements with any person when talking about politics/policy/philosophy.  (ie:  What should you do? == What should person do?)

It wasn't directed at you Vector, but... well, you spoke up so I probably catered the presentation as such.  I expect the same lenience from men toward "socially womanly" things.  So my opinions are not fully expressed therein.


Aside:

My Grandmother is (well, was... she's getting too old) a great sport at dealing with pests (spiders, bugs, mice) when we were growing up.  I always respected her for taking that initiative opposed to other women in my life (mainly my aunts).  It wasn't so much of her "[acting] more like a man" as it was just taking action.  I've talked with her extensively over the years and she actually grew up the sort of woman who was protected all her life.  She didn't raise my two oldest uncles for the first few years because she didn't know and was scared at the prospect of doing something wrong.  She actually hired a nanny to help out at first.  Raising the nine kids was a tremendous learning experience for her and I appreciate hearing all her stories when I get home.  Growing old with my grisly WWII Vet Grandfather taught her a lot about things she'd never have considered in a more sheltered life.  (And vice versa with my Grandfather ... )

[Jackrabbit]

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?

[Siquo]

I asked a girl out twice. The other 20 asked me out.

If girls didn't ask guys out I'd still be a virgin. 

[Andir]

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?

Consider me also interested in that answer.  Finding out why is not an easy task.  The only thing I can relate to that is the obsolete act of asking her father.

[Mindmaker]

Well, the most I ever got to hear about grils asking guys out from them was: "It would be weird".
Kinda in the way: "Better not upset the natural order of things".

Meh, it's bullshit. But what can one do?

[sluissa]

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?

Consider me also interested in that answer.  Finding out why is not an easy task.  The only thing I can relate to that is the obsolete act of asking her father.

Ditto on that.

I tend to be the kind of person that is content with the single life. I like relationships, but generally don't find them worth the trouble(i.e. Playing the game, being the stereotypical "hunter", etc.) of seeking them out. As such, I don't get into many, and the few I do end up in start out pretty awkwardly. I can't say I regret any of my decisions though. I've generally been happy with what experiences I've had and what my situation is at the moment, at least in that department. But... I can think of at least two situations, looking back on them where the other side of... if not a friendship, then at least an acquaintanceship seemed interested and if they had made an advance, I probably would have been interested in moving further, but because I either wasn't in the mood or didn't catch the signal at the time and do it myself, the chance was missed.