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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870496 times)

Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4635 on: September 07, 2011, 11:46:29 am »

Yeah, I'm getting that. Still not seeing it, though.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4636 on: September 07, 2011, 11:50:59 am »

Yeah, I'm getting that. Still not seeing it, though.
Me either, but hey. Maybe Vector will feel better soon and be able to defend the claim. I at least am open to criticism.

Quote
Part of them problem I think, for both sides, is that men are generally just told to deal with it. From the time they're children and on. Boys aren't supposed to cry or complain. They're supposed to stand up to bullying rather than seek protection. Men are supposed to deal with hazing as they enter a new tightly knit social group. I'm sure there are others, but I'm running out of time to do this post. In any case, on to my point. Because of these situations, men are taught to not complain, and thus you have social problems with men too, but you don't hear nearly as much of it: A: Simply because it isn't reported. and B: Because the (generally more severe) problems the other groups have tend to overshadow any that might come to light.
Gold star for you :)

I hate double standards. All of them.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

scriver

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4637 on: September 07, 2011, 11:53:01 am »

*shrug*

Guess I shouldn't have posted it.
Oh, I guess I should've made clearer that I agree with the point she is making in "the rest" (that is, the whole of it) of her post, I just got hung up on that little piece of it, which probably just was a mistake on her part (that is, I believe it is pretty obvious she meant to say "harassment on gender basing is a woman's issue" rather than just harassment, being how illogical it would be to say anything else after the boyfriend-example she just gave above), and since how sexual harassment is mostly what the rest of her post is about.

So yeah, in retrospect, it's rather dickish, and dare I say derailing of us as well to let such a thing overshadow the rest of her post, but it struck a nerve in me (the whole "men cannot be victims" thing, even though it is irrelevant to the article as a whole) and I needed to vent. I'm apologise for needlessly doing so in your thread.
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Love, scriver~

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4638 on: September 07, 2011, 12:55:07 pm »

I guess my main concern is the acceptance factor (touched upon by a few people here) is being targeted as evil when I think it should be accepted (or at worked with).  Society has certain constructs that assist it in moving forward.  Such that certain actions are rewarded socially.

Take dating for example.  Men are rewarded by other people for taking initiative and asking women out.  It's expected of them and it's rewarded by their parents, family, co-workers, and sometimes friends.  Men are rewarded for consummating with women for a certain reason (I personally feel it's rooted in propagation of the species.)  Etc.  When a woman does it, it's becoming more widely accepted but there's still a societal scar on the woman being "aggressive".

There's two extremes you can look at in this.  You continue to treat aggressive women like outcasts and assume that the acts of aggression should be stifled or you can celebrate it.  This is not necessarily "on the shoulders" of men.  Woman can celebrate those actions.  (ie: You can back her post and expand on topics.  Don't shy away and conform.)

Most of the talk so far has led me to believe people want to stifle aggressive behavior (acting out, stepping up) instead of boosting it.  (And I think this leads to many people alienating each other for performing the tasks required of them by society in general.)  You can view my post about the story as a stifling post or you can read it as an addendum.  I would prefer if you read it as an addendum and not look at it as if I'm being overly critical because she's female.  Of course, I can't change your perception but I do not believe I was being critical of her message... only a part of it.

You can attempt to change society's requirements/perceptions (good luck) or you can play along, focus on more core issues, and tackle them one at a time.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4639 on: September 07, 2011, 01:21:58 pm »

The problem with that, as much as I really, truly, honestly appreciate your politeness, is that the general assumption is that for women to be accepted, they need to act more like men.  That sticks the conditioned female behavior where it always has been-- negatively perceived.

Frankly, I don't feel like going out to prove you wrong today.  I am using my "must always be correct" skills and exhaustion on my math problem sets.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4640 on: September 07, 2011, 01:55:43 pm »

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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4641 on: September 07, 2011, 02:03:10 pm »

I agree with you completely.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4642 on: September 07, 2011, 02:39:23 pm »

the general assumption is that for women to be accepted, they need to act more like men.
That in itself is an assumption. What (I think) Andir is saying: the more a woman behaves like a man, the less she'll be accepted, while your gripe is that the norm for a woman is viewed as inferior to the norm of man.

So (I'm realising this aloud) you're in a Catch-22 as a woman: Doing what you're supposed to is inferior, and trying to step out and beyond is going to get you kicked even more. Well, at least Andir has shown his merit in the topic (not that there wasn't any, but people have hinted at that): only now I get what that whole feminism thing is about.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4643 on: September 07, 2011, 02:41:46 pm »

Oh.  Yeah.

I wish I'd managed to make that clear somehow =/  Good on Andir, though, and many thanks to him!
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4644 on: September 07, 2011, 03:33:28 pm »

I wish I had made it more clear.  I understand that there's a barrier and I'm not trying to be overly direct at what you should do.  I tend to read things in third person (implied observer?) and that probably leads me to write in the same way.  I generally don't connect statements with any person when talking about politics/policy/philosophy.  (ie:  What should you do? == What should person do?)

It wasn't directed at you Vector, but... well, you spoke up so I probably catered the presentation as such.  I expect the same lenience from men toward "socially womanly" things.  So my opinions are not fully expressed therein.


Aside:

My Grandmother is (well, was... she's getting too old) a great sport at dealing with pests (spiders, bugs, mice) when we were growing up.  I always respected her for taking that initiative opposed to other women in my life (mainly my aunts).  It wasn't so much of her "[acting] more like a man" as it was just taking action.  I've talked with her extensively over the years and she actually grew up the sort of woman who was protected all her life.  She didn't raise my two oldest uncles for the first few years because she didn't know and was scared at the prospect of doing something wrong.  She actually hired a nanny to help out at first.  Raising the nine kids was a tremendous learning experience for her and I appreciate hearing all her stories when I get home.  Growing old with my grisly WWII Vet Grandfather taught her a lot about things she'd never have considered in a more sheltered life.  (And vice versa with my Grandfather ... )
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 04:21:22 pm by Andir »
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Jackrabbit

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4645 on: September 07, 2011, 04:54:35 pm »

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4646 on: September 07, 2011, 05:08:58 pm »

I asked a girl out twice. The other 20 asked me out.

If girls didn't ask guys out I'd still be a virgin.  :-\
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4647 on: September 07, 2011, 05:15:35 pm »

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?
Consider me also interested in that answer.  Finding out why is not an easy task.  The only thing I can relate to that is the obsolete act of asking her father.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4648 on: September 07, 2011, 05:20:26 pm »

Well, the most I ever got to hear about grils asking guys out from them was: "It would be weird".
Kinda in the way: "Better not upset the natural order of things".

Meh, it's bullshit. But what can one do?
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sluissa

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4649 on: September 07, 2011, 09:17:22 pm »

Just to focus on one aspect of double standards that baffles me slightly more than other double standards: a girl not being allowed to ask a guy out. I've had to coach girls through it because they flat out refused to do anything but wait for fear of being looked down upon.

That just... not only is it blatant bullshit, I don't get how it happened. Why is this even a thing?
Consider me also interested in that answer.  Finding out why is not an easy task.  The only thing I can relate to that is the obsolete act of asking her father.

Ditto on that.

I tend to be the kind of person that is content with the single life. I like relationships, but generally don't find them worth the trouble(i.e. Playing the game, being the stereotypical "hunter", etc.) of seeking them out. As such, I don't get into many, and the few I do end up in start out pretty awkwardly. I can't say I regret any of my decisions though. I've generally been happy with what experiences I've had and what my situation is at the moment, at least in that department. But... I can think of at least two situations, looking back on them where the other side of... if not a friendship, then at least an acquaintanceship seemed interested and if they had made an advance, I probably would have been interested in moving further, but because I either wasn't in the mood or didn't catch the signal at the time and do it myself, the chance was missed.
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