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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870390 times)

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4530 on: August 29, 2011, 05:27:12 pm »

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Wow: It's 6:28 PM

I'm leaving just another day at the office for home currently. I've been interpreting laws, legal encyclopedias, contracts, and cases all day, while talking to you in my spare time, and now I'm done til tomorrow. I've tried to work with you and typed dozens if not a hundred pages responding to you in grand total. I'm not entirely sure specifically how I'm calling you a "bigot," or what you have against what I say that repeatedly comes up, but I'm just not sure I want to deal with it anymore.

It's a picture of a cat saying something like a person might.... It isn't there to threaten you; I'm not sure I want to know why you think I chose my avatar to do that.
__________________________________________________________________
Quote from: Truean
Here is only a small portion of what is to be gained by having a faster electrical restoration after blackouts: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/13/long-power-outages-cost-restaurants-thousands/
Think of all that food being thrown away in warehouses, grocery stores, restaurants, even your own individual refrigerator. That adds up to lots and lots of money.

Truean. In this case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. For less than $1000 those restaurants could buy a small gasoline generator which would easily be able to handle their freezer. Stock up on fuel before the storm and they'd be fine. (We ran our generator for more than a week, which powered 2 household freezers with more than enough capacity on less than 100 gallons.)

For a few thousand they could buy one that would be able to run off of the natural gas lines which (likely, if they're a restaurant) run straight to their business. Most of the time those lines aren't disrupted.

Well, actually I'd have to respectfully say not necessarily. I'm not entirely dismissing your point, just trying to add something specifically about generators.

I just bought a generator on sale cause I was without power for a couple days. Around here, that price will get you about a 5000 watt Generator that will run 10 hours on 5 gallons of gas ($4/gallon) at 50% load capacity. Your average household refrigerator uses 700 of that 5000 load. That might work for a home or a rather small store, but for a refrigerated warehouse or a grocery store, you're looking at a far more significant investment in hardware and fuel.

The ones I saw that could run a whole house were about $6000. From back when I worked in a grocery store, I'd really hate to think what it would take to power their massive inventory fridge. Again, you might be right, but even if you are $1000 generator isn't gonna cut it for your average Giant Eagle or similar supermarket. You're talking a rather significant upfront investment and the gas costs.... :(.

That said, maybe you could manage to find a cheaper generator or a more effective one, but fuel costs, particularly gasoline.... :(
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4531 on: August 29, 2011, 05:59:55 pm »

Why throw bricks at people when it's more fun to throw people at bricks?


Anyway, besides the suggestion to knit a scarf for grandma's kitty, you may want to think about why you are arguing. Because most of the arguments seem to be aimed at proving that you're not wrong, which to me seems kind of pointless when you're a.) On the internet and pseudonymous and b.) doing yourself a greater disservice by painting yourself as suborn then by backing down.
My argument is that I'm being painted as a liar and a bigot and a singular post in this thread is being used to ad hominem attack any position I make.  The only argument that I've made about me not being wrong is in what I said.  (It was one sentence... I don't know how much more clear and plain it could be.)  I firmly stand by the fact that what I've said was twisted.  If anyone disagrees with that assumption, please IM me.  I'd like to know where I screwed up.  I'm stepping away for the night per suggestion (so if you IM, I'll read it tomorrow)... have fun all.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

lemon10

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4532 on: August 29, 2011, 06:04:06 pm »

Quote
-massive argument about the meaning of the word glamorus as it relates to blue collar jobs-
To be fair, while andir is silly, often wrong and rediculous about a fair number of things, he is correct about this, being a lineman isn't glamorous and high pay doesn't make something glamorous (although it helps), glamor and good aren't synonyms.
Quote from: full definition of glamorous
full of glamour : excitingly attractive
Quote from: defintion of glamour
an exciting and often illusory and romantic attractiveness
Is being a lineman "full of "an exiting and often illusory and romantic attractiveness truean""?
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

TheBronzePickle

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4533 on: August 29, 2011, 06:13:45 pm »

I'd like to agree that Andir was correct in his defense of his statement, but I also feel that it might lead to more argument.
While the whole thing does fit with the 'Rage' part of this thread, it certainly did not fit the 'Chill and Relaxed' part. It also seemed to make very little 'Progressive' behavior either.
Perhaps we should just switch topics.
I don't know if he's been mentioned before, but I feel that the Youtube celebrity "Angry Aussie," while prone to being neither chill nor relaxed, would make a good compliment to this thread.
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Nothing important here, move along.

GlyphGryph

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4534 on: August 29, 2011, 06:32:44 pm »

Quote
The Good/Glamorous thing:
I'm not implying anything, western civilization and common usage do. "Among the best paid," jobs are good/glamorous jobs in common usage. Yes or no? The answer is yes....
Truean, seriously, this semantic confusion you keep having where you misread something some has said and then blame "society" for your mistake is getting grating.

No one I know thinks of glamorous, or even good, when they think of high paid blue collar jobs. When I mention it in context of linesmen, I get responses ranging from "I guess there's a shortage to linesmen" to "well it must be dangerous or hard work then". A few people associated it with them likely being better off financially (which is obviously true) and no further. Not one managed "glamorous". Not one even came close. The idea that you could come to that conclusion based on "society" is ludicrous. You read a meaning into it that wasn't there and wasn't justified, just accept that and move on.

Anyways, on topic instead of quibbling over semantics:
From the arguments made here and elsewhere I've seen on this topic, the following seem to be the three main points of opposition to having a large reserve force to handle this sort of work (ignoring the fact that our current system is actually pretty damn good! Seriously! Could it be improved? Probably. But those sort of conclusions require actual research and evidence, and I doubt anyone here has any of value, so I'm going to stick to theoretical for the most part)
 1: There's not enough work to go around to keep that many linemen experienced enough to be useful (or happy). Even if you're keeping this linemen mostly in "reserve", they need experience. Relevant, recent experience. Preferably lots of it. Unfortunately, there's only so much work that needs to be done in an average year, so keeping a huge increase in employees properly skilled would be incredibly difficult. Even if there was enough work for the numbers you're proposing, you would have to admit each linemen is unlikely to have as much experience (since, currently, all the normal repair work gets done). In addition, these new linesmen would likely be competing with the old linesmen for work.
2: Linesmen are already one of the highest paid jobs and they can't find enough employees. Logistically, a 50% hiring increase is huge. It's already one of the best paying blue collar jobs, and people still don't want to do it - how much would you have to increase the price to get them too? Where would they come from? And most importantly, would it lead to a decrease in quality? (Considering the shortage the industry is in, they'd either have to relax standards or raise pay, probably both, to hit this number. And it would still take years to get there. And is raising the risks and deathrate of the industry by having less competent workers who get less experience overall due to a diminished workload really worth the trade off? Because if you combine less competent workers with less time spent working and more time "in reserve", there's a chance that's what you'd get.)
3: There are more efficient ways to tackle the problem. People have brought up generators - generator investments could go a long way towards offsetting the costs of disasters such as these, and may well be far more efficient than hiring additional workers. You're whole point at the beginning was that people seem to be short-sighted, so at least you're keeping an open mind about this one. Man would a cost benefit analyses be appreciated here, though!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:35:58 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4535 on: August 29, 2011, 06:38:43 pm »

...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/bachmann-claims-hurricane-earthquake-were-god-messages-politicians-155051199.html

Any time I hear someone use "God" in a non-theological argument, I just wanna throw bricks at people.

Personally, I just like to reply that God has sent me to correct them or use similarly unfalsifiable logic.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4536 on: August 29, 2011, 06:39:11 pm »

Quote
-massive argument about the meaning of the word glamorus as it relates to blue collar jobs-
To be fair, while andir is silly, often wrong and rediculous about a fair number of things, he is correct about this, being a lineman isn't glamorous and high pay doesn't make something glamorous (although it helps), glamor and good aren't synonyms.
Quote from: full definition of glamorous
full of glamour : excitingly attractive
Quote from: defintion of glamour
an exciting and often illusory and romantic attractiveness
Is being a lineman "full of "an exiting and often illusory and romantic attractiveness truean""?

Actually, my point was that being a lineman isn't glamorous, hence why I cited all those death rates. What I was doing, all I was doing at that point, was showing that no, they aren't highly paid considering the dangers they face. He was pointing to high pay, which I maintain was him saying it was a good/glamorous job, due to the high pay. He then went on about how this term wasn't applicable or what he said, lovely red herring. He of course disputes this and I could care less.

Glamorous = type of good, high pay = good
First, Glamorous is a type of good, it certainly isn't a type of bad, or neutral. Thus it is a specific type of good. Second, the specific type of good glamorous is http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glamorous  "Excitingly attractive."

If glamorous is a type of good, specifically excitingly attractive, and high pay is a type of good, specifically excitingly attractive, then high pay =glamorous.

That's the logic; agree with it or not. High pay = glamorous, aka excitingly attractive, was the statement I maintain his words added up to.

I maintain this was a massive red herring on his part, just like how my avatar is "threatening" somehow. He's done this before, repeatedly, which makes it more likely he's doing it again.

Quote
The Good/Glamorous thing:
I'm not implying anything, western civilization and common usage do. "Among the best paid," jobs are good/glamorous jobs in common usage. Yes or no? The answer is yes....
Truean, seriously, this semantic confusion you keep having where you misread something some has said and then blame "society" for your mistake is getting grating.

No one I know thinks of glamorous, or even good, when they think of high paid blue collar jobs. When I mention it in context of linesmen, I get responses ranging from "I guess there's a shortage to linesmen" to "well it must be dangerous or hard work then". A few people associated it with them likely being better off financially (which is obviously true) and no further. Not one managed "glamorous". Not one even came close. The idea that you could come to that conclusion based on "society" is ludicrous. You read a meaning into it that wasn't there and wasn't justified, just accept that and move on.

Anyways, on topic instead of quibbling over semantics:
From the arguments made here and elsewhere I've seen on this topic, the following seem to be the three main points of opposition to having a large reserve force to handle this sort of work (ignoring the fact that our current system is actually pretty damn good! Seriously! Could it be improved? Probably. But those sort of conclusions require actual research and evidence, and I doubt anyone here has any of value, so I'm going to stick to theoretical for the most part)
 1: There's not enough work to go around to keep that many linemen experienced enough to be useful (or happy). Even if you're keeping this linemen mostly in "reserve", they need experience. Relevant, recent experience. Preferably lots of it. Unfortunately, there's only so much work that needs to be done in an average year, so keeping a huge increase in employees properly skilled would be incredibly difficult. Even if there was enough work for the numbers you're proposing, you would have to admit each linemen is unlikely to have as much experience (since, currently, all the normal repair work gets done). In addition, these new linesmen would likely be competing with the old linesmen for work.
2: Linesmen are already one of the highest paid jobs and they can't find enough employees. Logistically, a 50% hiring increase is huge. It's already one of the best paying blue collar jobs, and people still don't want to do it - how much would you have to increase the price to get them too? Where would they come from? And most importantly, would it lead to a decrease in quality? (Considering the shortage the industry is in, they'd either have to relax standards or raise pay, probably both, to hit this number. And it would still take years to get there. And is raising the risks and deathrate of the industry by having less competent workers who get less experience overall due to a diminished workload really worth the trade off? Because if you combine less competent workers with less time spent working and more time "in reserve", there's a chance that's what you'd get.)
3: There are more efficient ways to tackle the problem. People have brought up generators - generator investments could go a long way towards offsetting the costs of disasters such as these, and may well be far more efficient than hiring additional workers.

"Blame Society for my mistakes?" "Semantic confusion?" "grating?"

You do realize I interpret contracts and statutes for a living right? This is pretty standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person
That and using common or legal definitions for words....

If that's "semantic confusion," then the entire legal profession is guilty of it. "Grating," do you realize this is about 80% of what I do, especially in legal research? This is a big part of what lawyers charge for, and they charge a ton for it....

If you do what he did in a contract in a court setting, then standard objective interpretation, and contra preferendem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem means you lose. If you subjectively, within your own mind, meant something that doesn't appear on the page, you're screwed...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:11:17 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4537 on: August 29, 2011, 06:43:56 pm »

Clearly my last post was too subtle, but hasn't Vector explicitly asked the thread to move on twice now? C'mon, guys.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4538 on: August 29, 2011, 06:52:27 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-blocks-ala-illegal-immigration-law-190442307.html

And it seems people haven't learned from when Arizona tried to do the same thing.

Basic principles of federalism, some powers for the states, others for the federal government. Immigration is for the federal government. If you are a state and you keep trying to make laws about it, then the bench will keep tossing them out as unconstitutional on separation of powers groups/federalism, and because you states still haven't learned a thing.... [sigh]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:02:46 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4539 on: August 29, 2011, 07:33:01 pm »

Not that it matters, because laws like that aren't about making policy, they're about making it look like you're making policy. Now they get to claim activist judges overturned their States' rights, and possibly that there's a conspiracy to sell the country's jobs to foreigners. And these politicians are apparently the ones "Fighting the Man".
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4540 on: August 29, 2011, 07:35:20 pm »

Not that it matters, because laws like that aren't about making policy, they're about making it look like you're making policy. Now they get to claim activist judges overturned their States' rights, and possibly that there's a conspiracy to sell the country's jobs to foreigners. And these politicians are apparently the ones "Fighting the Man".

[sigh] I fear you might be right. That's sort of a "set 'em up to knock em down" strategy. Who cares what crazy law you pass if you know it will be struck down (just like AZ state's was), so cash in on the political capital and make a scapegoat of the person who would inevitably knock it down. Feign shock when they knock it down, also feign outrage.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:41:33 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4541 on: August 29, 2011, 07:42:05 pm »

Yeah, more and more that's what it feels like. People don't see a law that overstepped its bounds; they see a law that supported what they wanted (for whatever reason), and they saw that law scrapped on "a technicality".
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4542 on: August 29, 2011, 07:44:36 pm »

Yeah, more and more that's what it feels like. People don't see a law that overstepped its bounds; they see a law that supported what they wanted (for whatever reason), and they saw that law scrapped on "a technicality".

Yups, at it just seems like a massive waste of resources, including time. Especially after another state recently tried and failed at this, they should know better. We've got some serious problems and we need to tackle the ones we can manage. I'm not claiming to have the answers for the ones we don't know how to manage, but chasing impossibilities for popularity can't help.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

GlyphGryph

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4543 on: August 29, 2011, 08:19:14 pm »

Back on the subject of geek sexism, this is a pretty great blog, I think:
http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/photos-from-gencon-2011-part-1-of-2/

Lots of other good articles, too.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4544 on: August 29, 2011, 08:29:18 pm »

I know if I saw a booth with a practically clad adventurer/warrior woman on a banner (instead of a busty stripper) I'd check it out no matter what they were selling.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.
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