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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870238 times)

Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4410 on: August 27, 2011, 06:25:44 pm »

Obviously, if there's a getting-over-it program in place at all, that's not the situation in question.

Only can talk for myself though. I actually meant it in a "maybe" sort of way.
Maybe they'll leave their hobby behind at some point and move on with their live. With this I refer to the people, which spend all their freetime and money there.
People bringing their girlfriends around might also help, since they used to chat a bit with the regulars there.
Some of them already had a "life" outside of their hobbies and did well in these sorts of situations.

However I don't remember ever having any girl around there, who wasn't someones girlfriend.

Quote
I think a better moment to stop would be when women can walk into a comic book shop without feeling liken they're some sort of alien that needs to be shunned, but I will concede that this discussion isn't going anywhere and as such I'll refrain from posting more on this subject unless radically new views are brought to the table.
Please refrain from posting at all, (or at least try to refrain from repeated stereotyping, pointless hyperbole, blatant lies, and pointless insults) and I think a lot more progress could be made in a lot of discussions.
Bolded for emphasis.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 06:27:41 pm by Mindmaker »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4411 on: August 27, 2011, 06:35:41 pm »

Here's a good question, about a situation I encountered fairly often in the geek environs I've been part of, and I'd really like some ideas on what to do about it.

You've got a person or people who want to be in the group, but are sexist. You've also got women in the group. You try to point out to the sexists when they do something sexist (and honestly, that is usually not the only problem with them), and they are getting better, but the girls in the group don't feel comfortable when he is around. They're getting alienated. You've given him a try, he's improving, but not fast enough for everything to turn out alright.

What should the group do in that situation? Kick out the offensive sexist? Even if the kid literally had no other friends?
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4412 on: August 27, 2011, 06:40:58 pm »

I'd talk to the women and ask them what they think should be done.  This doesn't mean that they decide, just that you ask them for their opinion.  Then I'd ask the sexist for his opinion.  I mean, away from the main group.

That way, you let the sexist know precisely the outcomes of his actions (if he's getting better, usually the way to do these things is to call upon his sense of empathy), you let the women know that you care about what they think, and you have three opinions (yours, the women's, and the sexist's) between which you can make a plan.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4413 on: August 27, 2011, 06:42:31 pm »

Eh. Depends. How sexist the bigoted person is, and how (hyper)sensitive the target of their sexism is plays a big factor.

Just as an example for when you should keep the sexist person, I knew a couple that would get offended at anything closely resembling an insult that was thrown their way. Seriously, they'd explode about the most harmless of jokes. Everyone was extremely nervous around them trying not to offend them, and after one too many outbursts I stopped caring about their precious feelings and told them to hit the road.


So yeah, depends. If it's just an occasional "get back in the kitchen" joke all they need is a slap upside the head, not being ostracized.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 06:44:39 pm by kaijyuu »
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4414 on: August 27, 2011, 06:51:52 pm »

You know, I can enjoy insults flung my way about my looks, habits, cowardice, personal traits, whatever, but it seems most people don't understand that the sexist ones tend to hurt a lot more.  Needing to endure sexist jokes everywhere you go, lest you get kicked out for failing to "have a sense of humor," gets very tiring.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4415 on: August 27, 2011, 06:57:44 pm »

Oh don't think that I'm in any way defending sexist crap as acceptable, just that people shouldn't fall into disproportionate retribution.

Assuming a (seemingly) harmless joke, all that's required is a "dude not funny" response, with some lecturing if it doesn't stop. An emotional outburst won't help anything. With worse stuff comes heftier responses, up to and including being ostracized.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4416 on: August 27, 2011, 06:59:09 pm »

Ah, see, I think we have different scales at which the statement "emotional outburst" starts.  My fault.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Lysabild

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4417 on: August 27, 2011, 07:13:29 pm »

Having grown up with a family where I can give my mother the middle finger as a greeting, tell her to stay in the kitchen and joke about selling my sister to a Sheik, while getting joked about being quite a weak viking, being dirty in the face because the hair isn't quite beard or being told to go work more, I really don't get along well with hyper sensitive people much.

Jokes are jokes for a reason, it's not a joke if you mean it. But eh, Danes are rather famous for 'Crappy Humour' I guess, what with our taste in cartoons and what not.


Edit: An example is this, my brother just said goodbye and it went more or less like this, albeit in danish:

"Okay, goodnight fag."
"Your mother is a fag. Goodnight."

And earlier it wen't down like

"What's up?"
"Fuck you're disgusting you ugly bum."
"Dude, be careful I still got that hockeystaff."
"Dude, shit."

And hey, what do you know, even if I say FUCK YOU, FAG, SCREW YOU or BITCH it's all the same, we're all aware that it's not meant.

My usual greeting to my sister is "Fuck for en grim unge du er." "Fuck an ugly kid you are." And her response is "I lige måde." "You too."
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 07:57:31 pm by Lysabild »
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4418 on: August 27, 2011, 07:25:21 pm »

I'd say you did get quite a taste of what happens if you crack a joke at the expense of someone who's a bit more sensitive yes...


Anyway, in most cases I'd say long-time members form a more valuable asset than newcomers, so if the women are truly upset by the new one's presence then I'd say the new one has to go unless there are very goo reasons against it. but of course it makes no sense to expel a person on behalf of someone that doesn't want him to be expelled so comunicate before the group catches a bad case of communotcation...
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Rose

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4419 on: August 27, 2011, 09:25:54 pm »

Turns out some people don't like to practice what they preach.

Discuss.

Or not. I'm just putting that out there.
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sonerohi

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4420 on: August 27, 2011, 09:35:10 pm »

Well, I've got an anecdote similar to some of those on that site. The majority of my school is a very relaxed and liberal sort of Catholic, and a moderately sized minority are Jewish, Atheist, and Agnostic. The school staff, however, are a very strict and old-fashioned group. Everyone in the school has a mandatory 30 hours of community service during the year in order to graduate. The school offers double hours for people on "morally responsible service missions" and triple hours for people who "involve the community in community betterment" which really means forcing non-students to help you. They offer these picket events right around the different deadlines, and intentionally delay other service events they offer so that picketing is your only real option if you lack hours. Fourth quarter last year, one girl, who had gotten an abortion, brought her mother, who worked at the clinic, to picket a clinic that offered abortions. All sorts of weird.
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sluissa

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4421 on: August 27, 2011, 10:08:42 pm »

Honestly, it's not all that hard to find community service work almost anywhere. I had some mandatory time I had to do for school as well, and while it wasn't pushing us towards things like you said the "provided" opportunities tended to be things that benefited the school itself rather than the community as a whole. I won't go into details, but I managed to find volunteer work at a few different places and had most of my hours done in a couple of weeks during the summer.

All you really have to do is mention to people that you're looking for somewhere to help. Plenty of well intentioned places out there looking for free labor. :P
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4422 on: August 28, 2011, 12:22:32 am »

I  dont know wheter this goes here, or the rage thread, or the sad thread, but today my ten female friends with whom I was partying around were being harassed by a creepy guy.


You might be wondering why I did not rush in like a knight in a white horse. Well, the answer is that the creep was so big that he might have passed for the Great Khali's elder brother.. I was not anxious to give him an excuse to punch my nose into my cerebellum
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4423 on: August 28, 2011, 09:37:49 am »

See, I, again, see this from a strange outsider's perspective with the whole guys afraid of girls thing.

First, because I'm out to some of my girlfriends and they have friends who are boys, eventually some of the boys find out. Inevitably, some of those boys are nervous wrecks around women, I can relate, as I've gotten shy around men. Also, because I'm not out to everyone and can pass rather well as just a straight guy when I have to and also be one of the girls when I get the all-too-rare and coveted chance, I can kinda go between both sides.

There seem to generally be five types of guys as they deal with females, a.) the comfy, b.) the uncomfy, c.) sexists, d.) gay, and e.) "huh?" There are exceptions, mixtures, etc, but these are broad categories.

"The comfy" couldn't care less and just more or less are used to being around girls. Their focus is on things other than gender, which they don't really notice too often unless it comes up. Its more about "what are we doing tonight," and/or the activity the group is doing. This is the target we are, and straight guys themselves should be, aiming for. These are the guys who are usually fun/safe to hang around, and can be quite cute sometimes. Most girls I know want to date this type of guy, or at least will eventually once they get over the notion of the "dangerous guy" as attractive.

"The uncomfy," is his own worst enemy and reason why he rarely gets a date. He tends to fluctuate between two extremes: caring too much about what she'll think, and caring too little. In the first extreme, he's terrified and goes through paralysis by analysis. He is so terrified about screwing up that this becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, because he's focused on that and not on things that matter. The other extreme is when he finally just decides he's going to "go for it" and throws caution to the wind, which promptly blows him away. He said to himself at some point, "I can't worry about all of this stuff because it's holding me back," so he didn't. He then classically puts foot in mouth.

Sexists knowingly or not, through words or actions don't treat girls the same as boys and this sucks.

Gays, our troubles with women are of a decidedly different nature, as there is no sexual tension. We might be scared the girl could, intentionally or unintentionally, out us, before we are ready for this. Other than that we will typically happily be friends, it shall be fabulous. :D Though it is worth noting that I've actually seen some gays be sexist towards women, though I have no god damn idea why, at all.

The "huh?" are, as their name implies, quite clueless and oblivious to just about everything. "Huh?s" are not always male and indeed can be just about any type of person. They aren't paying attention and are pretty much just sorta there. Depending upon how cynical you are, these may make up any portion of the population. They may make an offensive remark, but be rather clueless about it. Some "huh?s" can be educated and informed; others seem to refuse to be.

As applied to comic book shops, this actually is the employer's/owner's fault. It is his or her business and he or she is in control of his or her own employees. The owner is stupid if they do not train their employees to cater to female customers. We're talking about a lot of money lost here in addition to the simple "you're cutting out people for no reason, jerk" considerations. I mean is this so hard? Let me get this straight, you hired a bunch of early twenties/teenage guys to serve customers/sell and they don't know how to deal with 50% of the population.... Reduced...sales...forecast.... And that's just in money, which nearly every store owner in the world understands.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 09:39:27 am by Truean »
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scriver

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4424 on: August 28, 2011, 11:40:57 am »

Turns out some people don't like to practice what they preach.
People are so funny.

Gays, our troubles with women are of a decidedly different nature, as there is no sexual tension. We might be scared the girl could, intentionally or unintentionally, out us, before we are ready for this. Other than that we will typically happily be friends, it shall be fabulous. :D Though it is worth noting that I've actually seen some gays be sexist towards women, though I have no god damn idea why, at all.
Wouldn't gay people just go in "comfy" or "uncomfy" as well, depending on how they feel about women?

Quote
The "huh?" are, as their name implies, quite clueless and oblivious to just about everything. "Huh?s" are not always male and indeed can be just about any type of person.
So in your list of how types of men feel about/act around, you have a group for people who do not need to be men and do not have to fit a type?
Huh.
:P
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