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[kaijyuu]

A dude who is pathologically uncomfortable around all women and cannot sell to them probably shouldn't be working the counter, and could instead work in stock or similar.

I've never actually been to a card/wargame/comic shop that wasn't owned and run be one or two people who were only doing so because they were total geeks themselves. I'm really not sure that sort of division of labour is practical.

What about being a total geek equates to being pathologically uncomfortable around women?

I'm gonna agree with Vector in that if that's the case, they shouldn't be working the counter. "But then there wouldn't be ANYONE to work the counter" is horrible stereotyping of geeks. Someone there is likely able to serve all their customers.


On the other hand though, I HAVE heard of people taking customer service jobs (like waiters and such) to get over social anxiety. So ultimately... the only "rule" in need of being placed is making sure all the customers are served. If they're completely awkward about it that's fine, so long as they do it.

[Virex]

You mean you have an actual psychological condition that prevents you from behaving appropriately when around women? You may want to get that looked at...

Any and all strangers that are trying to interact with me. I like to play D&D with friends at a local comic shop. I'm not discriminating against strangers for any reason besides them being strangers.

In that case you don't exactly fall in the category we're talking about here, now do you?

On one hand you're right of course, ostracizing socially inept people isn't going to solve the problem (Common sense, damn you! Why must you always be in my way?). On the other hand, there is a very real problem here and we shouldn't deny that. As Vector said, people need to get over it somehow. Don't ask me how, but condoning this kind of behaviour because "they can't help it" is going to solve jack all.

There is not a very real problem here. Some people are not comfortable around some other people. That does not mean they hate them, or have anything against them, it means only that they have an existent social anxiety to them. You say that they should "get over it", but one doesn't really "get over" not being socially graceful, that's just how they are. I say that you leave people who have done nothing wrong alone.

Acting as if a black person does not exist or stopping what you're doing and dropping your voice as to not be heard when she walks into a store would be considered very rude behavior if not worse. Why should it be any different if the subject is female?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

On one hand you're right of course, ostracizing socially inept people isn't going to solve the problem (Common sense, damn you! Why must you always be in my way?). On the other hand, there is a very real problem here and we shouldn't deny that. As Vector said, people need to get over it somehow. Don't ask me how, but condoning this kind of behaviour because "they can't help it" is going to solve jack all.

There is not a very real problem here. Some people are not comfortable around some other people. That does not mean they hate them, or have anything against them, it means only that they have an existent social anxiety to them. You say that they should "get over it", but one doesn't really "get over" not being socially graceful, that's just how they are. I say that you leave people who have done nothing wrong alone.

Acting as if a black person does not exist or stopping what you're doing and dropping your voice as to not be heard when she walks into a store would be considered very rude behavior if not worse. Why should it be any different if the subject is female?

Again with this thing about acting if someone does not exist. They are not acting as if the woman in question does not exist, they are intimidated by her presence. It doesn't even have to do with her being a woman, it has to do with her being unusual, as far fewer women go to these shops than men. They aren't acting as such because they want to, they are acting as such because their normal social group has had someone unusual suddenly enter it. They fear being ostracized by the newcomer, and so try to hide what they are doing.

[GlyphGryph]

To build on that, yes, it IS Rude, Stupid, and often Counterproductive, as well as damaging in lots of ways!

What about being a total geek equates to being pathologically uncomfortable around women?

What? Where did I say that? I just said getting someone else to work the counter isn't usually an option for these places. Not because they are geeks, but because there is usually only one person there.

I'm gonna agree with Vector in that if that's the case, they shouldn't be working the counter. "But then there wouldn't be ANYONE to work the counter" is horrible stereotyping of geeks. Someone there is likely able to serve all their customers.

How the hell is only person working at most of these shops a horrible stereotype? I am really, honestly, seriously not following here.

[Virex]

On one hand you're right of course, ostracizing socially inept people isn't going to solve the problem (Common sense, damn you! Why must you always be in my way?). On the other hand, there is a very real problem here and we shouldn't deny that. As Vector said, people need to get over it somehow. Don't ask me how, but condoning this kind of behaviour because "they can't help it" is going to solve jack all.

There is not a very real problem here. Some people are not comfortable around some other people. That does not mean they hate them, or have anything against them, it means only that they have an existent social anxiety to them. You say that they should "get over it", but one doesn't really "get over" not being socially graceful, that's just how they are. I say that you leave people who have done nothing wrong alone.

Acting as if a black person does not exist or stopping what you're doing and dropping your voice as to not be heard when she walks into a store would be considered very rude behavior if not worse. Why should it be any different if the subject is female?

Again with this thing about acting if someone does not exist. They are not acting as if the woman in question does not exist, they are intimidated by her presence. It doesn't even have to do with her being a woman, it has to do with her being unusual, as far fewer women go to these shops than men. They aren't acting as such because they want to, they are acting as such because their normal social group has had someone unusual suddenly enter it. They fear being ostracized by the newcomer, and so try to hide what they are doing.

And I guess an irrational fear of being singled out by the evil women that have the power to destroy your social life somehow makes their behavior acceptable?

[Mindmaker]

Part of me thinks that the nerds need to kind of get over it, because it seems like the treatment of women is like "oh my god, potential girlfriend, must impress!!  Time to panic!".

Sorry for saying this, but that's kinda rude. It's not quite that simple.
Sure, there's this attitude too, as described as the creepy-geek above.
Some are just afraid from being judged and made fun of, others are terrified of having their safe-space intruded (like in the women-only/man-only club discussion), or simply have no idea how to interact with them, or suffer from traumatic experiences in the past etc. The possibilities are endless.

Sure, they'll eventually get over it, but that takes time. I'm slowly making progress myself.
I can (more or less) naturally interact with women I don't care about, while I look like I'm about to run away when facing women I like.
That wears off after some time, as soon as I get to know them better and begin to trust them.
It used to be a lot worse.

[GlyphGryph]

And I guess an irrational fear of being singled out by the evil women that have the power to destroy your social life somehow makes their behavior acceptable?

You seriously need to stop this.

[Virex]

And I guess an irrational fear of being singled out by the evil women that have the power to destroy your social life somehow makes their behavior acceptable?

You seriously need to stop this.

I think a better moment to stop would be when women can walk into a comic book shop without feeling liken they're some sort of alien that needs to be shunned, but I will concede that this discussion isn't going anywhere and as such I'll refrain from posting more on this subject unless radically new views are brought to the table.

[kaijyuu]

What? Where did I say that? I just said getting someone else to work the counter isn't usually an option for these places. Not because they are geeks, but because there is usually only one person there.

Oooh, ok. Misunderstanding on my part, then.

I retract everythin'



You know what your problem is, Virex? You abandon logic in pursuit of what you think is right. You strike me as a person that would go "X is bad so we should do everything in our power to stop X" nevermind what "everything in our power" might entail.

Step back and look at the situation objectively.

[Vector]

Aren't they kind of ostracizing the newcomer themselves in that way, though?

I mean, I understand.  I can't stand having other people around me when I'm browsing in bookshops, using a computer, doing pretty much anything.  That's why I say that in a situation like a convention, i.e. something social, socializing with men and totally ignoring women unless they are dressed like hookers is frankly disturbing.

Er... let me put it like this, just in terms of how I feel:

Dudes socializing and getting nervous when a woman enters the room -> It'd make me feel kind of nervous and bad and like I don't belong--but hell, I wasn't there to interact with those people, anyway.

Dudes working a counter, chatting with each other, and totally ignoring a woman who is trying to buy things from them -> Yeah, no, I don't think so.

Dudes at a convention socializing only within their friend group (happens to be all dudes) and no one else -> I don't care.  Like, I REALLY don't care at all.

Dudes at a convention who will only open socialization situations with men, period, and appear vaguely anxious -> I'd feel a bit insulted, but I'd do my best to start conversations myself and come off as non-threatening as possible.

Dudes at a convention who will only socialize with men on an equal footing, but take up-skirt photos of women, or only give attention to women dressed as hookers -> major problem.

I hope that clears things up.

Sure, they'll eventuall get over it, but that takes time.

That's basically all I care about.  It's the situation where no one give a crap about shunning women and making them feel totally unwelcome that bothers me.  Obviously, if there's a getting-over-it program in place at all, that's not the situation in question.

[Nadaka]

I really can't relate to this girl fear you guys are percieving in the comic/gaming community. After zochi closed his gulfport, ms store, my primary game/comic store was owned and run by a woman. Hell, half the people I have gamed with have been girls/women.

[GlyphGryph]

I think a better moment to stop would be when women can walk into a comic book shop without feeling liken they're some sort of alien that needs to be shunned, but I will concede that this discussion isn't going anywhere and as such I'll refrain from posting more on this subject unless radically new views are brought to the table.

Please refrain from posting at all, (or at least try to refrain from repeated stereotyping, pointless hyperbole, blatant lies, and pointless insults) and I think a lot more progress could be made in a lot of discussions.

Moving on.

I really can't relate to this girl fear you guys are percieving in the comic/gaming community. After zochi closed his gulfport, ms store, my primary game/comic store was owned and run by a woman. Hell, half the people I have gamed with have been girls/women.

Thankfully, it a lot of it is not as widespread as it used to be (in my experience, though it might just be that I'm older now), and things honestly do seem to be getting better in many places, especially in the city. When I lived in Rhode Island, one of the nearby comic book stores was owned by a woman, and I never noticed any discrimination against them. The same can not be said of my experiences in more rural parts of other states. But, again anecdotal, in my experience it really only take one or two motivated women in the local gamer community to completely turn something like that around. Unfortunately, that often involves getting rid of the few sexist assholes that ARE all too common (and I think there was an article earlier about a group that decided the sexist assholes were more valuable), so its not flawless, and it doesn't have a lot of scope.

[Siquo]

Damn almost posted again while drinking and I already have an official warning this week. Okay... Euphemise. You can do it. Ok, here goes: Virex, you're being annoying, again.
For arguments I refer to Glyph over there ^^^.

[Virex]

You know what your problem is, Virex? You abandon logic in pursuit of what you think is right. You strike me as a person that would go "X is bad so we should do everything in our power to stop X" nevermind what "everything in our power" might entail.

Step back and look at the situation objectively.

I guess that would raise less of a fuzz in this thread, but it's sometimes difficult to do so if you already know you're right, though I'll try. I'm just afraid I'll go back to my "old" self, someone who was never wary of abusing logic to justify all kinds of atrocities by for example claiming the wrongdoers didn't know better...

I think a better moment to stop would be when women can walk into a comic book shop without feeling liken they're some sort of alien that needs to be shunned, but I will concede that this discussion isn't going anywhere and as such I'll refrain from posting more on this subject unless radically new views are brought to the table.

Please refrain from posting at all, (or at least try to refrain from repeated stereotyping, pointless hyperbole, blatant lies, and pointless insults) and I think a lot more progress could be made in a lot of discussions.

Considering that most of what I assume to be right or true is apparently according to most here a hyperbole or a blatant lie, I would probably do best by refraining from voicing my opinion here altogether...

[Bauglir]

I don't think you should stop posting entirely, unless that's the only option. I'm much more a fan of the reasoning thing (for instance, that they didn't know better doesn't justify it, but it may change the extent to which it's reasonable to punish them or even just explain where they went wrong and expect an apology, depending on what "it" might be).