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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 880779 times)

Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4140 on: August 22, 2011, 07:06:09 am »

Yeah, pen and paper voting is harder to rig and won't malfunction as easily... but for the sake of efficiency, I hope they'll manage to get really working electronic voting systems.
Not at all. Those papers have to be hand-counted. Just slip a few of the counters a banknote and observe the results change.
Wow. You really think that?

...I think I just forgot not to respond to your posts in this thread anymore. Damn. Ignore-BS-mode reinstated.
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4141 on: August 22, 2011, 07:07:48 am »

Wait, you mean that if you were a counter and someone would come waving a huge check in your face you wouldn't seriously consider checking a few boxes differently? (not saying that you would actually do it...)
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4142 on: August 22, 2011, 07:09:27 am »

Yeah, pen and paper voting is harder to rig and won't malfunction as easily... but for the sake of efficiency, I hope they'll manage to get really working electronic voting systems.
Not at all. Those papers have to be hand-counted. Just slip a few of the counters a banknote and observe the results change.

Nah, it's not that simple.

The counting process is watched at all times, has multiple counters and is repeated. Furthermore, AFAIK the counters aren't allowed to reveal their status to any outsider. At least that's how it works here in Finland, that is.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4143 on: August 22, 2011, 07:19:02 am »


« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 09:19:06 am by ChairmanPoo »
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4144 on: August 22, 2011, 09:00:45 am »

Yeah, pen and paper voting is harder to rig and won't malfunction as easily... but for the sake of efficiency, I hope they'll manage to get really working electronic voting systems.

meh, i wouldn't see it difficult to do such a thing. without even doing something program related.
you just place a server with NO connection to the net, nisba, not even half. or an inch.
like a big database.
you place one for each *voting place*
you place a monitor and ONLY a mouse.
so the input is just the mouse click.
the people you can vote for are on the screen. you click the one you want to vote, while someone, who stands in front of you but can't see your screen, looks what you're doing with your hands. so you can't use machineries of sort.
once it's done, you move all the databases to HQ and you make the counts there.
and the people who has vote rights present themselves at the pc the functionares have readied for them, after getting their data, so he's already logged in. and then he's auto logged off.
End of the problem.
 no internet, no hackers.
no extra machinery, no way to hack it.
i do believe it would end up being slower (do to having to set for each monitor the account name for the vote of the person) but even then, it's safe.
That's pretty much the way the Electronic voting works here in Ohio...

You sign in, the people in charge of the voting booths activate the machine and you can vote on each of the issues/elections using a touchscreen.  You usually have your back to a wall and there are little side panels so nobody can see what you voted.  Your votes are printed on a receipt in bar code in a little window off to one side.  I haven't looked into it further than that, but I assume the strips of coded paper are scanned into a machine later for the final count.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or somewhere else, but I recently read about some sort of possible man-in-the-middle voter fraud where the company that made the machines would send the votes to their server, then forward on the tally.  I didn't get too much into it (truth or falseness of it) but there was a claim made that the company accepting the data was modifying the votes.  Anyway... the point is that you can still have fraud even though it's not the person at the poll.  It could be a programmer, company, or something along that line of data that modifies the count.  This is why having an open system is essential to voting systems.
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Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4145 on: August 22, 2011, 09:17:40 am »

Ohio is the place where the president of Diebold promised to deliver the vote for Bush in 2004. Diebold being the Ohio company that produces electronic vote machines used in the state. There are numerous problems with diebold machines. They have been proven hackable, and that president was under investigation for other forms of fraud. To say there is something fishy going on there is somewhat of an understatement, but I don't think it is nearly as provably screwed up as Florida.
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4146 on: August 22, 2011, 01:16:39 pm »

"Open source" generally implies not only that the code is viewable by anyone, but also that it's free for anyone to use or modify (often with some licensing attached). It sounds like you only mean that it should be viewable, though, and I agree to that; it should be a matter of public record.

Uh, isn't that what's typically meant by "free software"? At least one of my free software activist friends always corrects me when I use the term open source for software with open source but not otherwise free licencing.

"Free software" and "open source software" are different more in philosophical approach/background than in actual execution.

As this GNU.org quote proves, it's a fairly philosophical and possibly pedantic distinction:
Quote
Nearly all open source software is free software. The two terms describe almost the same category of software, but they stand for views based on fundamentally different values. Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement. For the free software movement, free software is an ethical imperative, because only free software respects the users' freedom. By contrast, the philosophy of open source considers issues in terms of how to make software “better”—in a practical sense only.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4147 on: August 22, 2011, 01:20:19 pm »

Huh. I could swear one of the Stallman manifestoes criticized the term "open source" for including stuff like corporations capitalizing by having hobbyists debug their code... durp, I guess I was wrong.

We need a new term for something with open but not (necessarily) free source... too bad open source is already taken.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4148 on: August 22, 2011, 01:23:49 pm »

Huh. I could swear one of the Stallman manifestoes criticized the term "open source" for including stuff like corporations capitalizing by having hobbyists debug their code... durp, I guess I was wrong.

We need a new term for something with open but not (necessarily) free source... too bad open source is already taken.
You mean like Microsoft's take on Open Source?  (coined: Shared Source)  You can view the source, but you cannot do with it what you like.  If you use the source for your own projects, you are subject to legal recourse over patent and/or copyright.
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Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4149 on: August 22, 2011, 01:32:07 pm »

Huh. I could swear one of the Stallman manifestoes criticized the term "open source" for including stuff like corporations capitalizing by having hobbyists debug their code... durp, I guess I was wrong.

We need a new term for something with open but not (necessarily) free source... too bad open source is already taken.
You mean like Microsoft's take on Open Source?  (coined: Shared Source)  You can view the source, but you cannot do with it what you like.  If you use the source for your own projects, you are subject to legal recourse over patent and/or copyright.

That would be a third and infinitely more corrupted version of "open source".

The BSD aka MIT is the prototypical free software license. You can basically do whatever you want with it, including choosing not to publish source to any changes.

The GPL (v3 being the most ideal for its intended purpose) is the prototypical open source license. The GPL protects the original authors rights to ensure free distribution of derivatives by forcing anyone making derivatives to publish the source.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4150 on: August 22, 2011, 01:41:14 pm »

Huh. I could swear one of the Stallman manifestoes criticized the term "open source" for including stuff like corporations capitalizing by having hobbyists debug their code... durp, I guess I was wrong.

We need a new term for something with open but not (necessarily) free source... too bad open source is already taken.
You mean like Microsoft's take on Open Source?  (coined: Shared Source)  You can view the source, but you cannot do with it what you like.  If you use the source for your own projects, you are subject to legal recourse over patent and/or copyright.

That would be a third and infinitely more corrupted version of "open source".

The BSD aka MIT is the prototypical free software license. You can basically do whatever you want with it, including choosing not to publish source to any changes.

The GPL (v3 being the most ideal for its intended purpose) is the prototypical open source license. The GPL protects the original authors rights to ensure free distribution of derivatives by forcing anyone making derivatives to publish the source.
Yeah, but I assume that's what Kay12 was referring to: Open, but not free.

MIT is quite frankly the most free and open, GPL is free and open (as long as you retain it's freedom), and Shared Source is: "Here is our source, don't use it."
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4151 on: August 22, 2011, 01:43:02 pm »

Shared source is Microsoft's version, not a general term for "read only open".

These are extremely confusing...


In any case, back to where this started: public systems where a party could gain advantage by tampering (such as voting systems) should have their source code be available for public viewing to prevent malfunction and tampering. Whether or not the code can legally be copied, modified and reused or not is not relevant for voting system reliability.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4152 on: August 22, 2011, 01:53:42 pm »

Shared source is Microsoft's version, not a general term for "read only open".

These are extremely confusing...


In any case, back to where this started: public systems where a party could gain advantage by tampering (such as voting systems) should have their source code be available for public viewing to prevent malfunction and tampering. Whether or not the code can legally be copied, modified and reused or not is not relevant for voting system reliability.
Yeah, but any of those three common licenses would work.  It's not like making the voting machine MIT would allow people to inject their own code while voting.  You just don't give them access to the machine besides a touch screen (wired/wireless/usb/drives....)  The hardware is still owned by the State and presumably the software is the same that was released.  Ideally, the State would be given the source code and have someone compile and install it on the voting machines themselves if you really want to be sure the code on the machine is safe.

If we did have open poll software and the polls allowed you to bring in your own encrypted/encoded printed ballot... then be worried because you don't know if Joe Smith bought his machine from a individual with ulterior motives.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4153 on: August 22, 2011, 02:03:35 pm »

Shared source is Microsoft's version, not a general term for "read only open".

These are extremely confusing...


In any case, back to where this started: public systems where a party could gain advantage by tampering (such as voting systems) should have their source code be available for public viewing to prevent malfunction and tampering. Whether or not the code can legally be copied, modified and reused or not is not relevant for voting system reliability.
Yeah, but any of those three common licenses would work.  It's not like making the voting machine MIT would allow people to inject their own code while voting.  You just don't give them access to the machine besides a touch screen (wired/wireless/usb/drives....)  -snip-

Yeah, yeah, I know that, I know that. I've been working with some of these licenses and software development before. I was talking in a more general sense. For example, I work in a software company that produces systems that are useful to public sector and companies alike. The problem with certain public sector offers is that they require the source to be readable but our company can't really afford to release the source of an expensive program, so we really need to license it as read-only. I assume whomever creates <public system X> may have similar concerns.

InB4 closed source is evil and my company is evil for hoarding the source...
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #4154 on: August 22, 2011, 02:26:15 pm »

Shared source is Microsoft's version, not a general term for "read only open".

These are extremely confusing...


In any case, back to where this started: public systems where a party could gain advantage by tampering (such as voting systems) should have their source code be available for public viewing to prevent malfunction and tampering. Whether or not the code can legally be copied, modified and reused or not is not relevant for voting system reliability.
Yeah, but any of those three common licenses would work.  It's not like making the voting machine MIT would allow people to inject their own code while voting.  You just don't give them access to the machine besides a touch screen (wired/wireless/usb/drives....)  -snip-

Yeah, yeah, I know that, I know that. I've been working with some of these licenses and software development before. I was talking in a more general sense. For example, I work in a software company that produces systems that are useful to public sector and companies alike. The problem with certain public sector offers is that they require the source to be readable but our company can't really afford to release the source of an expensive program, so we really need to license it as read-only. I assume whomever creates <public system X> may have similar concerns.

InB4 closed source is evil and my company is evil for hoarding the source...
In that case, something like MS-RSL:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source#Non-Open_Source.2C_non-Free_licenses

I like calling it the MicroSoft Really Strict License. ;)
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."
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