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[Vector]

I believe because she wasn't actively beating the kid, but that's just me.

If it's because she's a woman, that's despicable as fuck.


I'm going to add that I find negotiation books for businesspeople much better in general than dating guides.

[Kay12]

Kay12, assuming they exist, they are statistically rare (at the least), and its probably likely he doesn't even need a good one, so...

That's because it's easy to write about patterns that were successful "for me". The idea I'm criticizing is that "if a book is about relationships, it can't be good". I see no reason to think so.

[Siquo]

And my ex-boyfriend implied that he would have beat the shit out of me if I had refused to leave his space when he ordered me to.

Easier when we're obedient, right?

Well, yes. Especially if I'm "ordering", I'd like that order to be followed up immediately. Example:
Me: "Come on, walk faster!"
She (while not walking faster): "Why are you always ordering me around I don't like that I AAAAAH" And luckily the car stopped just short of hitting her. Yes, I could have said "look out for that car" but that's just not how my mind worked at that time. When taking the "evolutionary gender psychology approach", we both decided it was because if you say RUN while hunting for tigers, the men who say "don't order me around who do you think you are ordering me around I'm sick and tired of it and you don't have the right to" get eaten by tigers. I'll repeat that: eaten by tigers, just because it sounds awesome.


Having to use physical means (not beating, just "picking them up and putting them down elsewhere") to remove girls from the same room I am in has happened as well. As did fixerupperprojects but telling them that they were is just evil. Plus that it doesn't work, it's the male equivalent of "oh, he'll change eventually".
And considering your age (and therefore his age)... well, your ex wasn't the best boyfriend you could have had but on the other hand he wasn't that abnormal either (considering the stories of the exes of my female friends). We all need to learn.

[Vector]

I was 18.  He was 22.

Thanks for the apologia.

[Reelyanoob]

[...]When taking the "evolutionary gender psychology approach", we both decided it was because if you say RUN while hunting for tigers, the men who say "don't order me around who do you think you are ordering me around I'm sick and tired of it and you don't have the right to" get eaten by tigers. I'll repeat that: eaten by tigers, just because it sounds awesome.

Nope, I've had males react the same way. "Do it like this" => "I'll do the opposite to what you recommend JUST BECAUSE". Personally this has been in my experience mainly with Info Tech stuff, and male computer noobs.

Female computer noobs have been more likely to actually follow the steps in my experience.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Ordering someone around in a romantic relationship is very different from physically grabbing and removing them from a life-threatening situation in the heat in the moment. Only the latter is justified, by way of the concept of necessity.

[Phmcw]

And my ex-boyfriend implied that he would have beat the shit out of me if I had refused to leave his space when he ordered me to.

Easier when we're obedient, right?

Well, yes. Especially if I'm "ordering", I'd like that order to be followed up immediately. Example:
Me: "Come on, walk faster!"
She (while not walking faster): "Why are you always ordering me around I don't like that I AAAAAH" And luckily the car stopped just short of hitting her. Yes, I could have said "look out for that car" but that's just not how my mind worked at that time. When taking the "evolutionary gender psychology approach", we both decided it was because if you say RUN while hunting for tigers, the men who say "don't order me around who do you think you are ordering me around I'm sick and tired of it and you don't have the right to" get eaten by tigers. I'll repeat that: eaten by tigers, just because it sounds awesome.


Having to use physical means (not beating, just "picking them up and putting them down elsewhere") to remove girls from the same room I am in has happened as well. As did fixerupperprojects but telling them that they were is just evil. Plus that it doesn't work, it's the male equivalent of "oh, he'll change eventually".
And considering your age (and therefore his age)... well, your ex wasn't the best boyfriend you could have had but on the other hand he wasn't that abnormal either (considering the stories of the exes of my female friends). We all need to learn.

All this is not gender based (nor is the attitude of your ex btw, if I recall correctly, you told us he do beat his little brother should he disobey) so I'm not sure how it is relevant to the discussion.

In my experience, gender based stereotype are pretty much as relevant as cultural based ones, or job based ones.
Which mean not all that useful because of their inaccuracies, but good to know anyway. And there are little things that are usually true and not obvious immediately (for instance girl tend to be much more insecure toward their physical apparence than men. If you have a girlfriend, anything regarding her appearance have to be a compliment, usually). But it's not always true.

Book on how a stereotypical girl/guy migh think are useful if you don't have any idea that such tough pattern may exist.
To make a parallel with cultural stereotype including though pattern I'd never have : I never encountered anyone IRL who was for complete gun deregulation. Or anything approaching gun laws as they exist in the states.
The line "American are usually supportive of incredibly lax gun regulations and may be quite sensitive about the issue" would be interesting for a Belgian who travel to the states, and would pretty much be the counterpart of my earlier example about girl's physical appearance.

[Vector]

When that guy might have been hit by a car, trust me, I grabbed him and dragged him.

I'll admit to saying I wanted to smack him once or twice, but I stopped that pretty fast because I knew it wasn't right.  I did tell him I hated him, after he dumped me by email.

I can't say I was perfect.  But from my perspective, being as hard on myself as I possibly could be, I never matched the great bulk of his statements and actions.

[Kay12]

On the other hand, people should dare to make requests. I'm not talking about stuff like "do <x> for me or I'll beat you up" or anything like that - that is as wrong in a relationship as it is everywhere else, possibly even more. On the other hand, in any pairing, people should not neglect addressing their own needs and desires simply to please the other guy. Requesting privacy at home is alright, and it's something I should've done a few times - luckily, not during a romantic relationship.

True story: I was spending my (way too short) free weekend during my military service. I was supposed to relax and get some rest. A friend (now an ex-friend...) showed up and wanted to talk. Usually cheerful, this time he was down and whined about his feelings of uncertainty about his sexuality because he had heard that most men are, to some extent, bisexual. He was an ex-homophobe and cool with gays - as long as he wasn't one himself. Okay, I'm more than glad to help my friends in the state of emotional distress, but... he spent three hours that could've been blissful relaxation for me at my house, repeating the same stuff over and over again, didn't accept any help I tried to offer (it's ok to be bi, just be yourself, relax, talk to your girlfriend about this etc), and after I had asked him to leave so I could get some rest, he did... stating he was "disappointed" because I couldn't help him. That angsty git.

[G-Flex]

And my ex-boyfriend implied that he would have beat the shit out of me if I had refused to leave his space when he ordered me to.

Easier when we're obedient, right?

Well, yes. Especially if I'm "ordering", I'd like that order to be followed up immediately. Example:
Me: "Come on, walk faster!"
She (while not walking faster): "Why are you always ordering me around I don't like that I AAAAAH" And luckily the car stopped just short of hitting her. Yes, I could have said "look out for that car" but that's just not how my mind worked at that time. When taking the "evolutionary gender psychology approach", we both decided it was because if you say RUN while hunting for tigers, the men who say "don't order me around who do you think you are ordering me around I'm sick and tired of it and you don't have the right to" get eaten by tigers. I'll repeat that: eaten by tigers, just because it sounds awesome.


Having to use physical means (not beating, just "picking them up and putting them down elsewhere") to remove girls from the same room I am in has happened as well. As did fixerupperprojects but telling them that they were is just evil. Plus that it doesn't work, it's the male equivalent of "oh, he'll change eventually".
And considering your age (and therefore his age)... well, your ex wasn't the best boyfriend you could have had but on the other hand he wasn't that abnormal either (considering the stories of the exes of my female friends). We all need to learn.

If what Vector's describing "isn't that abnormal", then Jesus Christ everybody is fucked up. Granted, adolescents being fucked-up isn't really news.

... And why exactly would you need to have forcibly moved someone out of a room? Any situation where you'd need to do that (or order someone to do something for their own safety) is very much an outlier, and not the kind of thing Vector is referring to at all.

[Kay12]

... And why exactly would you need to have forcibly moved someone out of a room? Any situation where you'd need to do that (or order someone to do something for their own safety) is very much an outlier, and not the kind of thing Vector is referring to at all.

I think people have the right to request privacy - threatening with violence is another thing though, that's not cool.

[G-Flex]

If it was his own private space or something, and it was actually necessary to physically force the other person out, I can kind of understand that... but again, that's an incredibly rare situation and not the sort that was relevant to discussion.

[Siquo]

Ordering someone around in a romantic relationship is very different from physically grabbing and removing them from a life-threatening situation in the heat in the moment. Only the latter is justified, by way of the concept of necessity.

Oh certainly, that's why I rarely if ever do it. If I do "order" around, it must therefore be a necessity where time is of the issue and I do not have the time to explain.

Thanks for the apologia.

You're welcome. Also, if that was sarcasm, I am on a crusade to remove sarcasm from the world, so I won't say sarcastic stuff, nor interpret anything said sarcastically as such.

The other stuff he said is just emotionally abusive, but on the topic of "emotionally abusive realtionships", there's plenty of that to go around, and without belittling your experiences, a lot of us have to work through shit like that. I don't think he (or anyone) is a dick because he's a dick (or because he has one ), but because he didn't know what to do either and just flailed around randomly just making stuff worse, or acting all offense-is-the-best-defense-y "yeah well you have cooties". I can relate to that Most abuse is just from well-meaning but insecure people who have no idea how to constructively channel their emotions in a relationship, not by Evil Overlords, hence my apologia.

(Fakeedit reading ninja): Ah, you were in a mutually abusive relationship! Well, a soul without scars isn't pretty.

In my experience, gender based stereotype are pretty much as relevant as cultural based ones, or job based ones.
Which mean not all that useful because of their inaccuracies, but good to know anyway. And there are little things that are usually true and not obvious immediately (for instance girl tend to be much more insecure toward their physical apparence than men. If you have a girlfriend, anything regarding her appearance have to be a compliment, usually). But it's not always true.

Uh, yeah. This is the N'th time someone points out that "statistics don't count for every individual". We know.
It's relevant because radically throwing away all statistics because bigots think that it does is counterproductive. That most men act like their aforementioned appendages doesn't mean all men are dicks.


WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP POSTING

... And why exactly would you need to have forcibly moved someone out of a room? Any situation where you'd need to do that (or order someone to do something for their own safety) is very much an outlier, and not the kind of thing Vector is referring to at all.

Well, if you request for someone to leave, again, and again, then leave yourself but the person follows you around and won't stop the incessant cackling, then order her to leave with a raised voice, then physically picking her up and locking the door (locking her out and myself in before you get the wrong impression) was the only solution without hitting her that I could come up with in the heat of the moment.

Doesn't happen often but it did happen (with different people) twice in my life. So yeah, outlier, but not outside the realm of acceptable behaviour.

[Vector]

*shrug*

He'd already said that he was looking forward to finding ways to emotionally destroy my extended family, with a big smile on his face, and occasionally we'd go by people playing loud music and he'd say "See, those are people my Fallout character would have taken care of with a rocket launcher" or similar.

Oh, and that I was evil, dirty-hearted, that my parents didn't love me, that I wouldn't be accepted by another dude, and that I was generally out to bewitch and get him.

So frankly, I dunno.  What would you have said?  Other than "Fuck off and never talk to me again?"

[G-Flex]

I'm glad I've never dealt with anyone like that. Certainly, that's more commonly a masculine way of manipulating people, so odds are I wouldn't have, but I'm pretty happy about never having dated anyone who put me in that kind of position. I was certainly naive and submissive enough in high school that it probably would have worked on me, too. I was usually in the opposite role, if anything: Too much of an emphasis on wanting to "help" people, and not much of an idea of how to deal with that urge responsibly, leading to me not really understanding for quite a while that relationships had to be, you know, reciprocal, instead opting for that kind of messiah-complex knight-in-shining-armor thing that a lot of reasonably good guys do before hopefully learning that it doesn't make any goddamn sense.