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[G-Flex]

Hmmm.  Thanks, Siquo.  That was actually something I needed to hear.

I think women are socialized to perceive things like that differently.  If someone makes you feel bad, it's because you did something wrong, and if you make someone feel bad, it's again because you did something wrong.  If you're confident, you're uppity and bitchy.  If you're argumentative and proud, you can be called any range of names... harpy, bitch, shrew, and so on.

Yeah, males do it to establish dominance. However, consider this: If they have to draw you down to get above you, it means you already were above them.
Men acting like jerks is a compliment, they're afraid of you

Unless they do it in a group, then it can be bonding as wel, enforce social cohesion by pushing away "otherness", and noone dares to stop it because they will automatically be outcast as well. *sigh* You know what, those men haters might've been right all along. Men suck.

Women are pressured to establish dominance over each other as well, even if they (typically) do it in different ways.

I wish you guys would stop making generalizations about how women know women are good at tech things but they like dolls because they like babies and it's all just biological predestination issues at heart without asking the woman in the actual tech major.

It's statistics. Worse than lies or damn lies but it's the best we've got, sorry.

The problem comes when people try to apply statistical facts to individuals, which makes no damned sense and can be extremely harmful. Statistics like this work for describing groups, not individuals. An individual who is statistically "average" in all respects is an extremely unlikely person, and if you're ever in a case to judge an individual (i.e. most of the time), using statistics of the general population to do so is pretty damn flawed. Unfortunately, people do this all the time.

[Siquo]

The reason matters a lot if you take it seriously and let it affect you.

I am cruel just for fun (like I just did) (sadism needs an outlet, too), which is kind of random so everyone gets a piece. I don't really discriminate

Women are pressured to establish dominance over each other as well, even if they (typically) do it in different ways.

Well, it's more lateral, and cohesion is more important than a single hierarchy of "who is on top" (this is my personal analysis, again). Also dominance is usually not so much achieved by one-on-one battles as men do, but in choosing your allies, and setting them up against your opponent. More dimplomacy than a public display of power.

Statistics like this work for describing groups, not individuals. [...] Unfortunately, people do this all the time.

Yes, that's why I applied it to a group (that is: the lack of female engineering students). However, people aren't individuals until you really know them, that's why most people are still treated as their stereotype, I think.

[Reverie]

Well, it's more lateral, and cohesion is more important than a single hierarchy of "who is on top" (this is my personal analysis, again). Also dominance is usually not so much achieved by one-on-one battles as men do, but in choosing your allies, and setting them up against your opponent. More dimplomacy than a public display of power.

The U.S. government could take some advice from this, I think. Not so much about dominating another through diplomacy, but just diplomacy in general.

[kaijyuu]

You know what? I've stopped caring about how much gender affects behavior. Even if I'm completely wrong and cultural influence doesn't exist in this case, it still doesn't matter to me what the trends are. Why?

Because frankly there's no justifiable, moral reason to use this knowledge outside of stuff like advertising.

What can you use it for outside of prejudice and rationalization? Let's take women and body image; if you have a friend who's struggling with it, what are you going to do? Say she's like that because she's a woman? Tell her she's a victim of her gender? The fuck?


People are individuals. They deserve more of your attention than what their physical attributes are before you start making assumptions about who they are. I'm a brown haired, brown eyed, caucasian white male. Those are some of my physical attributes, but they are NOT who I am.


There's reason for advertisement and search engine scripts to use these statistics, but not you or I. If you pull them out to justify, rationalize, or pre-judge behavior, allow me to call you a jackass and a bigot.

[Virex]

You can use them to counteract perverse influences. You know, like the feminist movement is trying?

[Reverie]

Kaijyuu, was that directed at me? I am sorry if I stepped on your toes.

[Truean]

Ninja'd by Truean: Effeminate is an insult? Oh. Ok. Damn. Perhaps I need to beat up some people now. Also, your society sucks.

It is here, unfortunately. I'm inclined to agree about the sucking thing.

Seems a little harsh. Back in the day I had a lab tech who through gross incompetence damaged beyond repair some very expensive optical appratus. A disciplinary tribunal ruled that he should be dismissed as it wasnt the first time this had occured. He then sprung his trump card - they were a pre-op transexual. Basically there was no way they could be dismissed without his lawyer dressing it up as a discriminatory case which would have cost a signifgant amount in damages/payoff/public image, and proceeded to come to work in female attire (as was thier right) and from that day until they left by mutual consent was referred to by thier new female chosen name.

I had no issue over thier lifestlye choice. I had an issue over their incompetence. It seemed somehow unfair that thier lifestyle choice countermanded this incompetence - the fact that this individual seemed to want to use it as a weapon or a tool to their own ends could be seen as wrong couldnt it?

....

And the first thing wrong with that post is "Lifestyle choice." I chose to be and desperately tried to be a straight male. I lived in denial for years, and did almost everything imaginable to make myself straight. I couldn't be with a girl, or be attracted to one, or even aroused by one, though I did try.... I couldn't actually [ahem] be with a girl, because I think I would just cry like hell in the fetal position. In fact, that's exactly what happened the first few months my boyfriend and I tried to be intimate, I just broke the hell down, curled up into a ball, cried etc, because I was raised to think "gays" were abominations. Simple logic, If I am gay and gays are abominations.... Somehow, he merely held me, for months, with saintly patience.... There is no choice, if there was, I couldn't make it.

This "using it as an excuse" is by far the exception rather than the rule in this country. The thing about affirmative action, I dunno, I've been fired from jobs for being gay (expressly told "you're fired faggot"). I've had to be twice as good as anyone else if I was ever found out, and that was no guarantee of not being fired. I could always submit the nervousness that caused the breaking of the equipment was caused by being trans and worrying about every aspect of their life and this is particularly relevant to trans because fully 40% of us are so worried/depressed we commit suicide. Condition causes suicide but couldn't impair work functions...? I simply don't know enough about the case and all I have is one side of the story. Moreover, once she came out and transitioned, did her performance improve?

If it's a legit excuse, then it's more than justified. If it's BS, then clearly no. It's a case by case basis thing, and a blanket rule one way or the other shouldn't be seen as just. If _____ disease or condition, effects someone's job performance and treating that disease or condition improves it, then why fire for that? Merely allow treatment. Replace, "transsexual fearing/unable to transition," "with diabetic unable to take insulin," "depressed and afraid to take medication," yeah.... See where I'm going with this? If this is a boy who cried wolf, then I'll be more utterly enraged at them than you ever could conceive of being. If a legit concern, then I'm behind it.

That said, I'm immediately suspicious of anyone calling it a "trump card," it is soul sucking hell the likes of which I will never fully tell you. If this person is willing to risk being disowned by their families/friends, undergo expensive, life altering surgery,  (which you can always die from), then slack should be cut.... Things are rarely as simple as "I have terrible condition that causes me unending misery without treatment and from statistics and experience may lead to my death (suicide or not, it's all just corpses), let's profit off it!" . <--- Not buying this. In my experience, it's more like "I have a terrible medical condition I suffer from constantly, please have pity on and help me." Though this can be under a facade of covering shame and acting brave. I act brave a lot... "act." Not, "am," but "act...."

You wanna trade places with a transsexual? You want the "job security" in this case, in exchange for what they go through? Not pleasant, not profitable....

Truean, I'd be curious to hear your take (and ein's, although she pretty much avoids this thread) on the whole "gender predilections in kids" thing we had going a couple pages back. Especially because I realized an unwelcome corollary to my insistence that it's mostly social conditioning is that it would actually provide ammo to people who want to argue that a kid can be "made" homosexual through social conditioning (and conversely could be 'conditioned' hetero).

Although I would note that this is not MY argument, merely a direction one could take the argument I was making. FWIW, I think personal preferences and interests, gender identity and sexual orientation are three very different things and that an overemphasis on social conditioning ignores the rather large contribution of individual personality.

I don't know. The same screwed up position that gives me my unique insight, robs me of a normal one.... I adamantly oppose the notion that kids can be made gay or straight, see above in this post. I desperately tried to be a straight male for years.... I had any and every social and other reason to be straight. Nopes, cannot work. Then there's all that "ex gay" scam which I have repeatedly denounced, and will happily do again, with pleasure.....

[Reverie]

Truean, you have been through a lot--I admire your resolve, and I support you (as much as that is worth). What keeps you going? By the sounds of it, I would crumble if I tried facing the things you face.

[Africa]

Far as I'm aware, "effeminate" isn't a generic insult, it applies to men. Nobody ever says a woman is effeminate, of course, but if they did it wouldn't be considered insulting. I assume.

[Truean]

Truean, you have been through a lot--I admire your resolve, and I support you (as much as that is worth). What keeps you going? By the sounds of it, I would crumble if I tried facing the things you face.

[blush] Thank you.... I really do appreciate that. .... [hug].

Honestly, I don't know. Asking yourself questions like that is a good way to regret not having an answer....

I'm ashamed to say spite and longing to say hope....

Far as I'm aware, "effeminate" isn't a generic insult, it applies to men. Nobody ever says a woman is effeminate, of course, but if they did it wouldn't be considered insulting. I assume.

I believe its synonyms sadly are. They may not say "effeminite," but they'll call you a sissy, or a pussy, or any number of derogatory things. The implied notion is that "females are less than or bad" and then linking a male to that "less than or bad thing," emasculates and insults him. Vulgarity seems to fix nicely into this. [sigh]

[Truean]

http://www.progressive.org/?q=mp_monifa061208 A respectable enough progressive publication.... That is if the name tells you anything.

http://www.progressive.org/whole_foods_anti_muslim.html
America: Loves Religious freedom, "even" if you're Muslim...?

http://www.progressive.org/stop_onslaught_against_teachers.html
School teachers, black sheep? Baaaa?

http://www.progressive.org/pocan_alec_watch_new_orleans.html
All men and corporations are created equal....?

[Kay12]

Seems obvious to me why humans would live past fertile age: For one, it's advantageous to have older generations around for social reasons (us being social animals and all), and for two, we've largely done that ourselves via modern medicine and living conditions; I doubt a whole lot of people lived past 50 in the prehistoric era.

Umm...there's large swathes of sub-Saharan Africa today where most people don't even make it to 50.

By average, sure. But low life expectancy is caused mainly by infant mortality - if you live to the age of 20, your chances of living to a ripe old age are substantially higher. Besides, starvation and illness aren't really related to the main idea - humans start to weaken only years after they stop reproducing, which is a fairly unique phenomenon in the animal kingdom. Again, I think the reason is culture - with a social structure common to humans, elders are still useful to the society as teachers, workers, babysitters etc even though their reproducing days are over.

[G-Flex]

humans start to weaken only years after they stop reproducing, which is a fairly unique phenomenon in the animal kingdom. Again, I think the reason is culture - with a social structure common to humans, elders are still useful to the society as teachers, workers, babysitters etc even though their reproducing days are over.

Agreed, although people start to decline physically prior to that age, although I'm not sure when exactly.

[Kay12]

humans start to weaken only years after they stop reproducing, which is a fairly unique phenomenon in the animal kingdom. Again, I think the reason is culture - with a social structure common to humans, elders are still useful to the society as teachers, workers, babysitters etc even though their reproducing days are over.

Agreed, although people start to decline physically prior to that age, although I'm not sure when exactly.

Nothing compared to other animals, though - especially since most other animals get pruned for being weakened by age.

[MonkeyHead]

Truean, what I referred to by "lifestyle choice" was the choice to hide it whilst in work - the individual in question was single, in thier 50's and had no family - it later emerged that they had been living as a female in all areas of thier life save for thier work life, which is understandable. For the record, the individual in question had no desire to undergo any gender reallignment treatment, and was still attracted to women.

Oh, and no, thier performance didnt improve post disclosure. If anything, it deteriorated, they developed a "work to role" attitude and a confrontational nature (and was involved in one fist fight of thier own starting), despite being given 100% acceptance from all that worked with them - they were not the first transgendered person to work here so its not as if we had no expereince of the circumstances in question. During this whole saga we had to fire another lab tech for budget reasons - incidentally he was homosexual, and went through a seperate tribunal regarding his dismissal which ruled it was unfair as it was not on grounds of incompetence, but thats another story...

Sorry about the "trump card" reference. It was made in an ironic fashion without considering its ability to cause offence.