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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870048 times)

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3750 on: August 16, 2011, 03:56:22 pm »

And for women, if we settle down then we're basically dead in the water and worthless as anything other than "mommy."


According to that logic, though, all fertile women should like dolls, at least initially.
Not sure if it matters, but if I had a woman in my life that wanted to work and provide an income while I stayed at home with the kids... I'd do it.  I have no problem with that whatsoever.  I'd give up my pension (cause it's gone if I leave anyway), my career as a senior developer at a global "transportation" company and raise the kids as long as I knew that she was in a stable position and capable of doing it  (pretty much any career woman fits that bill if you ask me.  I may be bias though since both my managers are women.)  I may be an exception to some rule but I think there are many other men out there that would do it as well.

I think you may be overly hard on yourself when it comes to that thought process.  You just need to find the right person.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3751 on: August 16, 2011, 04:03:48 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I second basically everything Vector said, and throw in my own screwy situation. I sort of can see it from both sides, because that's more or less where I am.

We are all trapped by social expectations. One who does not humor society's expectations will be disapproved of by it, which will make success difficult if not impossible. This applies at infancy/childhood, continues into adulthood and sustains until we die. Pressure, from not conforming to societal expectations, can come from overt, internal, and systematic sources. All of this negatively, and as a rule needlessly, effects the individual.

Beginning at childhood, we have social expectations that grow as our social circle grows, beginning with parents and expanding to relatives, friends, teachers, etc. Schools and care taking functionaries will divide children by sex. The division itself, without hard barriers, limits our peer groups and from there what we are directly exposed to in frequency and proximity. Failure to conform to whatever society expects of children will result in their not being included at some point. This applies to both genders and to other characteristics of the child, from intelligence, athleticism, charisma, maturity, and economic status, to many others.

Once one grows older, the pressure is not only social but economic. If one does not met society's expectations, being hired, much less maintaining a job is difficult. Appearance and social connections win out over merit and ability, provided the bare minimum of standards for ability is met. Age does not lessen these rules or their application but might provide some respite if the person is truly, ever so rarely, self sufficient (doesn't even need a job).

As applied to me, as a transsexual woman forced to live a lie, I can see both sides. Again the rule of deviating from society's expectations = punishment, applies. Here, I fake what I must to make society think I meet its expectations. If I were to show up to work as I actually am, while providing the same service, information and results to my boss and his clients, I would be summarily fired. (there is no legal recourse by the way). Without belaboring the point more than required, one would think if your lawyer knew what the hell he was talking about would be more important than appearance given you risk prison time or paying a large monetary judgment if he or she does not.

My story is not unique, though it is a bit of a twist. What if you are a "masculine presenting," "tomboyish," or simply not overly "girly" woman who is perfectly happy being a female but does not restrict yourself to the standard societal expectations. The same applies to a male who is "effeminate presenting," (There really isn't a non insulting term for a male counterpart to a tomboy and that says something), or simply not "macho" man (and heaven help you if you're gay in the US). All of the above people are perfectly understandably feeling pressured by society to change, and there is no reason for this. Any two characteristics can be substituted for gender/sex in this example, the logical framework, holds true.

Speaking as close to "objectively" as I can, not a damn bit of this should matter, at all. The question should be, can they do the work in question.

This is of course, an oversimplification. I'm capable of witting a book but not cruel enough to expect you to read it. :)
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3752 on: August 16, 2011, 04:14:53 pm »

I wish you guys would stop making generalizations about how women know women are good at tech things but they like dolls because they like babies and it's all just biological predestination issues at heart without asking the woman in the actual tech major.
It's statistics. Worse than lies or damn lies but it's the best we've got, sorry. Presuming I actually understood that sentence.

Your insecurity is what we also talked about before, women in general (especially when confronted with a male competitive environment) tend to underestimate themselves. We all know you do, and how even a deserved compliment can make you blush right through the internet.
You do because we (The Evil Males Mwhuhaha) want you to. The male competetive environment is exactly that: competetive. Every weapon, including making you feel insecure about anything, is allowed. If we have a discussion and I make an off-hand remark about how awful your clothes are, if that makes you more insecure, I have an advantage. Perhaps men are more used to it and (mentally) built for it (read: insensitive) (and the ones that aren't are really screwed, or just have to leave the game (like me, I hate that game)).

Anyway, case in point: you rock, against the statistics. :)

Ninja'd by Truean: Effeminate is an insult? Oh. Ok. Damn. Perhaps I need to beat up some people now. Also, your society sucks.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3753 on: August 16, 2011, 04:15:27 pm »

Quote
As applied to me, as a transsexual woman forced to live a lie, I can see both sides. Again the rule of deviating from society's expectations = punishment, applies. Here, I fake what I must to make society think I meet its expectations. If I were to show up to work as I actually am, while providing the same service, information and results to my boss and his clients, I would be summarily fired. (there is no legal recourse by the way). Without belaboring the point more than required, one would think if your lawyer knew what the hell he was talking about would be more important than appearance given you risk prison time or paying a large monetary judgment if he or she does not.

Seems a little harsh. Back in the day I had a lab tech who through gross incompetence damaged beyond repair some very expensive optical appratus. A disciplinary tribunal ruled that he should be dismissed as it wasnt the first time this had occured. He then sprung his trump card - they were a pre-op transexual. Basically there was no way they could be dismissed without his lawyer dressing it up as a discriminatory case which would have cost a signifgant amount in damages/payoff/public image, and proceeded to come to work in female attire (as was thier right) and from that day until they left by mutual consent was referred to by thier new female chosen name.

I had no issue over thier lifestlye choice. I had an issue over thier incompetece. It seemed somehow unfair that thier lifestyle choice countermanded this incompetence - the fact that this individual seemed to want to use it as a weapon or a tool to thier own ends could be seen as wrong couldnt it?

RedKing

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3754 on: August 16, 2011, 04:18:10 pm »

Truean, I'd be curious to hear your take (and ein's, although she pretty much avoids this thread) on the whole "gender predilections in kids" thing we had going a couple pages back. Especially because I realized an unwelcome corollary to my insistence that it's mostly social conditioning is that it would actually provide ammo to people who want to argue that a kid can be "made" homosexual through social conditioning (and conversely could be 'conditioned' hetero).

Although I would note that this is not MY argument, merely a direction one could take the argument I was making. FWIW, I think personal preferences and interests, gender identity and sexual orientation are three very different things and that an overemphasis on social conditioning ignores the rather large contribution of individual personality.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3755 on: August 16, 2011, 04:24:33 pm »

Hmmm.  Thanks, Siquo.  That was actually something I needed to hear.

I think women are socialized to perceive things like that differently.  If someone makes you feel bad, it's because you did something wrong, and if you make someone feel bad, it's again because you did something wrong.  If you're confident, you're uppity and bitchy.  If you're argumentative and proud, you can be called any range of names... harpy, bitch, shrew, and so on.

Hurmph.
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3756 on: August 16, 2011, 04:32:41 pm »

Hmmm.  Thanks, Siquo.  That was actually something I needed to hear.

I think women are socialized to perceive things like that differently.  If someone makes you feel bad, it's because you did something wrong, and if you make someone feel bad, it's again because you did something wrong.  If you're confident, you're uppity and bitchy.  If you're argumentative and proud, you can be called any range of names... harpy, bitch, shrew, and so on.
Yeah, males do it to establish dominance. However, consider this: If they have to draw you down to get above you, it means you already were above them.
Men acting like jerks is a compliment, they're afraid of you :)

Unless they do it in a group, then it can be bonding as wel, enforce social cohesion by pushing away "otherness", and noone dares to stop it because they will automatically be outcast as well. *sigh* You know what, those men haters might've been right all along. Men suck.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3757 on: August 16, 2011, 04:43:11 pm »

If you're argumentative and proud, you can be called any range of names... harpy, bitch, shrew, and so on.
Can I counter your name calling with: ass, dick, retard, grouch, old man, and so on.  The names fly both ways, but I think Siquo makes a better point.  For guys, the insults are almost expected.  "Maybe if you ironed those pants you might not look like a slob." "Who gets chicken salad for lunch?" "I can't believe you get paid more than me." are among things I've heard people say to each other this week.  There's some truth in those statements, but it's usually said in a "joking" manner to make the other person realize there's a problem without saying: "Excuse me Joe, I've noticed that your pants have some wrinkles in them.  According to the dress code..." which would make you sound like a "douche."  (yet another name for the guy who defies the group in some way.)
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Vector

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3758 on: August 16, 2011, 04:45:07 pm »

Hmm, I've also been called most of those names as well.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3759 on: August 16, 2011, 04:48:21 pm »

Hmmm.  Thanks, Siquo.  That was actually something I needed to hear.

I think women are socialized to perceive things like that differently.  If someone makes you feel bad, it's because you did something wrong, and if you make someone feel bad, it's again because you did something wrong.  If you're confident, you're uppity and bitchy.  If you're argumentative and proud, you can be called any range of names... harpy, bitch, shrew, and so on.
Yeah, males do it to establish dominance. However, consider this: If they have to draw you down to get above you, it means you already were above them.
Men acting like jerks is a compliment, they're afraid of you :)

Unless they do it in a group, then it can be bonding as wel, enforce social cohesion by pushing away "otherness", and noone dares to stop it because they will automatically be outcast as well. *sigh* You know what, those men haters might've been right all along. Men suck.

People suck. All of those are people traits. Its standard operating procedure for both sexes.
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3760 on: August 16, 2011, 04:50:07 pm »

People suck. All of those are people traits. Its standard operating procedure for both sexes.
Not in my experience. But that might be a cultural thing.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3761 on: August 16, 2011, 04:57:19 pm »

Hmm, I've also been called most of those names as well.
Well, I've been called a bitch too... so I guess I don't know what to say.  Harpy is pretty gender specific, but I would say dick and old man are as well.  Of course there's old maid... Hell, we could come up with all kinds of names, but I'll defer to Siquo's explanation on the matter.
People suck. All of those are people traits. Its standard operating procedure for both sexes.
Not in my experience. But that might be a cultural thing.
Women can be cruel to each other.  A few women I know can be pretty cruel to the men they work with...  Obviously men can be bad to each as well.  I guess I don't know what you mean.  People can easily be bastards to each other on a regular basis.  It's especially easy for some if they don't know you.  I drive a Mazda Miata and I've been called all kinds of things by people who don't have a clue who I am.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3762 on: August 16, 2011, 04:59:27 pm »

That sort of life conception sounds scary.
Do you think you'll give your "feminine side" a chance, once you'll have that feeling of achievement?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 05:03:19 pm by Mindmaker »
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3763 on: August 16, 2011, 05:00:02 pm »

Women can be cruel to each other.
It's not about cruelty, it's about the social use of cruelty: why are people cruel to eachother. I personally find that women (YES ON AVERAGE) are sometimes cruel on different occasions and for different reasons than men.

Driving a miata is asking for it, though ;)
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3764 on: August 16, 2011, 05:04:32 pm »

Women can be cruel to each other.
It's not about cruelty, it's about the social use of cruelty: why are people cruel to eachother. I personally find that women (YES ON AVERAGE) are sometimes cruel on different occasions and for different reasons than men.

Driving a miata is asking for it, though ;)
But the reason matters not.  It's the fact that someone intends to inflict some sort of dominance or proof that they are right that makes them suck.  (IMO)  You may have a different view on "suckage" though.  There's the "you suck at some activity" sort and the "you suck at being a good person" sort.  I tend to use the latter.

Also, all I gotta say is: Don't knock it till you drive it.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."
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