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[olemars]

That's pretty close to what they do in many european countries, except they collect the fee as taxes.

[Andir]

I'm talking about the education cost, not overall cost of raising a kid.

The thing is, we educate children so they contribute to society when they're older.  I don't see why parents should have to face that cost as well.

Because I don't think that parents should be encouraged to kick out kids without understanding the impact.  This is how the baby boomer problem we have happens.

I paid for my own education.  I worked a 40 hour week doing store clerk work (stock, customer service, etc.) while going to school.  I was able to do that with a loan from the government, but it's entirely possible to get a degree without having rich parents.

I'm not sure if you've spent much time with young people today. A lot of them would love to do this, but it simply isn't an option - I don't know anyone under 21 who's found a full time 40 hour a week job that would pay for their education, which is getting more expensive every year. I'm also assuming you had a relatively good FREE education for the twelve years before that, am I right?

Yes, there was K-12 (13 years actually) but I'm talking college level.  I did not pay for it with the wage I was working at the time.  I paid for it later with the job I got from the education.  The job during school was to pay for food, board, and some side cash for necessity.

[Siquo]

I think this is what you call an unsupported assertion.  If you look at various world rankings of best universities, you tend to see a mix of UK and US universities.  The UK doesn't have a particularly expensive university system (or at least didn't until very recently) - so how come many of our universities end up near the top?  I think there are much more complicated factors at work than SOCIALISM MAGICALLY DESTROYS EVERYTHING

Ah Leafsnail, you never cease to oppose me (and occasionally even make a good point while doing it ).

Well, firstly, I am a socialist, compared to international and even national standards, so I doubt that is what I meant...
So, let's look at the University listings as you propose: This one here is pretty acclaimed internationally. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities,_2010

Ah, USUSUSUSUKUSUSUSUSUK. I'm starting to see a pattern, there. Also, the UK universities listed here don't accept all students. They get to pick the cream of the crop.

The application system to Cambridge and Oxford involves additional requirements, with candidates typically called to face-to-face interviews.
How applicants perform in the interview process is an important factor in determining which students are accepted.[56] Most applicants are expected to be predicted at least three A-grade A-level qualifications relevant to their chosen undergraduate course, or equivalent overseas qualifications.

So yeah, if you get hand-picked like that, you are much more likely to make the most out of it, instead of slacking off and trying to postpone the working life as long as possible. That, I admit, is based mostly on several anecdotal evidence of friends who studied abroad in the US. Especially people whose parents had to pay out of their asses to come up with the tuition, or students on scholarships worked really hard, whereas that would only net you a pat on the back over here. It's a common criticism on EU socialism, that it takes away the incentives. If I suddenly get a 50% raise, I would see only 15% more in my bank account (not just because of taxes, that is including all kinds of stuff that's income-dependent). So why work 50% harder if that means I'll just get 15% more money? 

Well, we're lucky not everyone is as lazy as I or the average person is. On the other hand, there's also people who say that you can measure a country's civilisation by how it treats it's poor.

It's also why I wish that the parents "share" the cost of adding a child to the system... and why they are informed how much it costs.  I don't find any issue with privatized colleges, but mainly because of the greater issues at hand (lower education.)

What do you mean by share?

Right now I have added a child to the system. It's an only child, raised with a lot of attention. It has two higher-educated parents and has some money in the family to get it kickstarted. It is already showing above average prowess in intellectual and social behaviour (as expected) and will all likelyhood net our society more than it will cost. This "raising" doesn't come free, and the time that I invest I don't get paid for.

YOU should be paying ME.

[Sheb]

That's pretty close to what they do in many european countries, except they collect the fee as taxes.

Yup, but then we hit the problem Siquo mentioned earlier: If university is essentially free, students (at least a large minority of them) just don't give a shit.

[Lysabild]

That's pretty close to what they do in many european countries, except they collect the fee as taxes.

Yup, but then we hit the problem Siquo mentioned earlier: If university is essentially free, students (at least a large minority of them) just don't give a shit.

How can you think so? Is DF a worse game because it's free? Do we stop caring BECAUSE it's free?

I don't see this happening in Denmark either, where we have some of the most hardcore welfare in the world and pay about 37% in tax as a minimum. I have no education except what I guess is High School, have only had a job for a month once, years ago and I have lived in my own apartment for 3 years with a paid man working to help me improve my life. I am paid about 1100$ a month and I don't do anything for them except try to sort my life out and you know what? They won't lose money on it. Because unless I die before my time, I will get over this depression, get a job and I will pay those money back in taxes for the rest of my life. So they will only have gained, by spending and my life has been saved from living on the street.

But I still care about getting an education, the fact that people pay their taxes for me to live gives me a certain feeling of guilt that makes me want to progress (And I have, starting more school in 17 days or so.)

People won't work less because it's free, it's just that people who do work less will be allowed to go to university.

Fuck this I'm not making sense

[Nadaka]

I worked my way through college, 40 to 60 hours a week, and still had a $40k student loan debt. The education I got was ok. But only because of how dedicated I was to learning everything I could, even outside of the system.

If I couldn't get a "B" or "A-" without studying in most classes, I wouldn't have made it.
If I didn't spend most of my free time educating myself, I would have learned little.

So yes, a poor person can work their way through and get a minimal education if they are both dedicated and brilliant. If I didn't have to work that hard to survive while still going into crushing debt, I could have gotten a much much better education. I was qualified to go to some of the better schools in the world, and if I was in a better position as a teenager and had anyone to support me I would have. Quite frankly, people (even the poor ones) deserve a better shot at it than I had.

[Andir]

How can you think so? Is DF a worse game because it's free? Do we stop caring BECAUSE it's free?

DF is an exception to the rule... it's very niche.  It's also a very different concept.  If DF vanished tomorrow, we could continue using it in the state it's in today.  The same cannot be said about education.

Frankly, I didn't pay for DF so if it goes to hell, I don't care.  I move on to the next game.  I'm not going to spend more than a minimal amount of time trying to get other people to play it because it's their prerogative if they want to play.  Can the same be said about education?  I don't know.

the fact that people pay their taxes for me to live gives me a certain feeling of guilt that makes me want to progress

I just wish more people thought this way...

It's also why I wish that the parents "share" the cost of adding a child to the system... and why they are informed how much it costs.  I don't find any issue with privatized colleges, but mainly because of the greater issues at hand (lower education.)

What do you mean by share?

Right now I have added a child to the system. It's an only child, raised with a lot of attention. It has two higher-educated parents and has some money in the family to get it kickstarted. It is already showing above average prowess in intellectual and social behaviour (as expected) and will all likelyhood net our society more than it will cost. This "raising" doesn't come free, and the time that I invest I don't get paid for.

YOU should be paying ME.

I was thinking that the taxes would be put into a flat rate per child and parents would be responsible for a percentage of that.  You wouldn't have parents on the hook for the entire bill, but encourage the parents to think twice about having that fifth child.  Maybe start charging after N children? (sustain the population?)  I don't know.  I just think about the people who don't/can't have children that have to pay for other children to go to school.  Yes, the overall benefit to society is continuation of an educated society but blindly pumping out kids has a downside and should be discouraged.  I know far too many people who would be more than happy to do that.

[Sheb]

Well, I did met a lot of people that didn't care about university because it was so cheap. Missing a year isn't a big deal. Which doesn't mean we need to make it unaffordable.

[GlyphGryph]

Yup, but then we hit the problem Siquo mentioned earlier: If university is essentially free, students (at least a large minority of them) just don't give a shit.

I would imagine the solution here would be to raise the bar, and only make University free for those who actually care, by making failing classes more likely to get you removed from the university. And failing classes is more likely. And maybe let them try again every four years after getting kicked out (don't want to cement people at the bottom of the ladder forever, we want them to believe they can eventually improve and get another chance when they are wiser).

In essence: "We'll give you an education, and the means to survive while you get it, but only if you really want it. If you aren't trying, we're not going to waste our time with you - come back when you're ready."

Because I don't think that parents should be encouraged to kick out kids without understanding the impact.  This is how the baby boomer problem we have happens.

Except, you know, this would just result in parents having kids and not giving them an education, which has a statistical tendency to turn them into criminals or people who pop out a lot of kids and then don't give them an education. It's not that I disagree with your goals, here, but the methodology is terrible. That simple isn't the way things work. If you want the results you state, the incentives your proposing aren't going to cut it, and would, in fact, exacerbate the problem.

[Siquo]

You wouldn't have parents on the hook for the entire bill, but encourage the parents to think twice about having that fifth child.  Maybe start charging after N children? (sustain the population?)  I don't know.

Neither do I, or anyone else, even though most of us can see that "some people shouldn't have children". That's parenthesised because it's a very very iffy issue... Cue derail in 3.. 2.. 1...

[Kay12]

Well, I did met a lot of people that didn't care about university because it was so cheap. Missing a year isn't a big deal. Which doesn't mean we need to make it unaffordable.

My experience differs from yours... here in Finland, all universities are fairly cheap, but studying in one certainly isn't, because instead of just slacking around not caring and not getting paid, you could just start working and make money. Many people leave the university during the first year precisely because of that - it isn't a terrible burden to have them around for long enough for them to realize they don't really want to live with the little income they get when studying.

[olemars]

Yup, but then we hit the problem Siquo mentioned earlier: If university is essentially free, students (at least a large minority of them) just don't give a shit.

I would imagine the solution here would be to raise the bar, and only make University free for those who actually care, by making failing classes more likely to get you removed from the university. And failing classes is more likely. And maybe let them try again every four years after getting kicked out (don't want to cement people at the bottom of the ladder forever, we want them to believe they can eventually improve and get another chance when they are wiser).

In essence: "We'll give you an education, and the means to survive while you get it, but only if you really want it. If you aren't trying, we're not going to waste our time with you - come back when you're ready."

They do that at universities here. If you don't keep up with the base progression (ie fail classes) you lose part of the government grant. Fail enough classes and you'll get kicked out.

I guess I should mention that not only is higher education free here, you actually get paid to study Somehow people get through it and go on to do well in good jobs. You can study for ages if you like or slack your way through classes, but that has consequences and people realize that. People should get an education because they have the abilites and motivation, not because they can afford it.

[Reverie]

Glyphgryph, the U.S. Navy employs something like that with their nuclear propulsion schools; students get paid to learn. A good percentage of those that are schooled under this program still do not make it solely due to the accelerated curriculum and resultant emotional stress.

[Phmcw]

Well, I did met a lot of people that didn't care about university because it was so cheap. Missing a year isn't a big deal. Which doesn't mean we need to make it unaffordable.

Yeah, but it return we have a very qualified workforce. I still wonder why our economy isn't plummeting, though : How long have we been without government? Two years?

[Miggy]

Somewhat related, I was just thinking on current regulations for medicines and the time it takes for them. Why not have two options for pharmaceutical companies. They can either go through with the full battery of testing, and NOT be open to sued if there's X thing resulting from use of it. OR they can opt out of the majority of it (the majority, not ALL of it), but be liable for whatever happens.

Speaking as a student of chemistry, absolutely not. The amount of harm and horror that can bypass non-thorough testing is incredibly high, and it is that for a reason.

If a company was to opt out of doing the tests and "risk" getting sued, in worst case they'd end up harming a substantial amount of people, then getting bankrupt right afterwards. There's no reason to risk a massive double tragedy. For instance, look up the history of Thalidomide.

As for the education debate: I am massively in support of a very socialist education system.

I study at Aarhus university. I do not pay for any of my classes. I pay for my books (this coming semester has amounted to some 350 USD worth of books) and whichever resources I use to take notes and do assignments. Every month I am paid the equivalent of 900 USD by the government that I can live off while I study. Right now, I am actually netting up a monthly profit of some 300 USD each month, due to other (actually also government paid) income.

At the university, we do see some people that try to leech off of the system, but mandatory tests are there to flush them out. If you haven't passed all your mandatory first year courses by your second year, you're out. The people that can't be bothered to study get kicked out.
That's of course assuming they get in in the first place. But in my particular field in Aarhus, anyone is let in. There are not enough applicants to warrant any grade minimum. There are on some other fields though.

I feel like I have everything I need, and despite all of the drama going on with the economy my world and my outlooks haven't changed a bit. I want everyone else in the world have it like I have it.