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[Kay12]

At least the Finnish government educated us a lot... I knew that all races were equal before I had even seen a black person (there were very few immigrants in Finland when I was a kid).

About censorship though, I hate to see the following pattern happen very often here in Finland... some politician (typically from True Finns, it seems) or other VIP says something racist (or close enough), and the incident is publicized as the police investigate whether the statement is incitement or not. So many people want to defend their rights to practice hate speech - I can't really blame them for feeling that way, but I think social problems would be easier to solve without it. Heck, by what I've heard, an MP whose only two publicized acts have been a joke about "niggers who only know the word 'refugee'" and open condemnation of gay marriage has had his approval rates doubled... I seriously hope that's only a rumor, though.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Oh how much better the world would be if we could actually have an enlightened population...

I would agree with the philosopher-kings approach, other than the fact that I'm totally terrified of the inherent corruptibility in such a system.  I don't trust any one person with the wheel.  I'd like to, but... no.

So the next option is to be a government that attempts to educate its populace.  It's not a guarantee, but I think it's the best we can do without the (considerably greater) dangers of "enlightened dictatorship."

(EDIT: this is, of course, why I'm dead set on being a teacher of some sort.  If I don't become a professor, I will do other teaching work)

Indeed, democratic government isn't without it's faults, but it's the least worst of all competing systems. It only works, however, with an educated and informed populace. Stupidity and ignorance are a bigger threat to democracy than any amount of guns or bombs.

[Phmcw]

No. Seriously they should be arrested, and will be if they dare to only express their idea publicly.

Phmcw, re-read this, just this. Think about what you're advocating here.

Tyranny will not solve tyranny.

I know what I'm advocating. Calling for the murder of one million men is not less condemnable than calling for the murder of one.
And if you call for the murder of someone, you will be arrested. Hence, if you call for the murder of the Jews, you shuld be arrested.

[MonkeyHead]

Oh how much better the world would be if we could actually have an enlightened population...

I would agree with the philosopher-kings approach, other than the fact that I'm totally terrified of the inherent corruptibility in such a system.  I don't trust any one person with the wheel.  I'd like to, but... no.

So the next option is to be a government that attempts to educate its populace.  It's not a guarantee, but I think it's the best we can do without the (considerably greater) dangers of "enlightened dictatorship."

(EDIT: this is, of course, why I'm dead set on being a teacher of some sort.  If I don't become a professor, I will do other teaching work)

Indeed, democratic government isn't without it's faults, but it's the least worst of all competing systems. It only works, however, with an educated and informed populace. Stupidity and ignorance are a bigger threat to democracy than any amount of guns or bombs.

As shown beautifully by us in the UK at the moment where the "underclass" are doing what they do best, and ruin it all for the rest of us.

Vector, I am quite qualified to comment on this! It is fantastic to shape the minds of the next generation, but do remember that you will in general only come into contact with those that have a similar outlook to you in the first place. This isnt to say that you wont end up educating the lower echalons of society, but they will be less open to being educated in the manner you want them to be.

[Phmcw]

As shown beautifully by us in the UK at the moment where the "underclass" are doing what they do best, and ruin it all for the rest of us.

Vector, I am quite qualified to comment on this! It is fantastic to shape the minds of the next generation, but do remember that you will in general only come into contact with those that have a similar outlook to you in the first place. This isnt to say that you wont end up educating the lower echalons of society, but they will be less open to being educated in the manner you want them to be.

That's why you must avoid having a lower class. Don't have many poor or complete lawless area, problem solved.

But I wonder what is your background : you don't seems very informed on what it is to live in the lower class.

[Kay12]

No. Seriously they should be arrested, and will be if they dare to only express their idea publicly.

Phmcw, re-read this, just this. Think about what you're advocating here.

Tyranny will not solve tyranny.

I know what I'm advocating. Calling for the murder of one million men is not less condemnable than calling for the murder of one.
And if you call for the murder of someone, you will be arrested. Hence, if you call for the murder of the Jews, you shuld be arrested.

While I agree with you in general, that presents another problem - where exactly does the border between acceptable and unacceptable speech go?

[Phmcw]

While I agree with you in general, that presents another problem - where exactly does the border between acceptable and unacceptable speech go?

We've got a law on that : basically, you can't call for the murder of a category of the population or defend blatantly racist theory.

The aim is to erase blatant bigotry in the public area, and to give you tools to fight back if you're insulted because of your color/sexual orientation.

[Vector]

Vector, I am quite qualified to comment on this! It is fantastic to shape the minds of the next generation, but do remember that you will in general only come into contact with those that have a similar outlook to you in the first place. This isnt to say that you wont end up educating the lower echalons of society, but they will be less open to being educated in the manner you want them to be.

Given that most of my classmates don't think the way that I do, at all, I have no fear of being useless.

[Kay12]

While I agree with you in general, that presents another problem - where exactly does the border between acceptable and unacceptable speech go?

We've got a law on that : basically, you can't call for the murder of a category of the population or defend blatantly racist theory.

Yes, there are laws on that, but then again, everything's a bit relative. For example, there are many people who openly support death sentence for Anders Breivik, the guy who killed dozens of people in Norway a few weeks back. As Norwegian law doesn't recognize death penalty, they're basically requesting him to be unlawfully murdered. Of course, the difference of executing a terrorist and executing innocent people based on ethnicity is huge, but still, definitions are going to be difficult in processing hate speech.

[MonkeyHead]

As shown beautifully by us in the UK at the moment where the "underclass" are doing what they do best, and ruin it all for the rest of us.

Vector, I am quite qualified to comment on this! It is fantastic to shape the minds of the next generation, but do remember that you will in general only come into contact with those that have a similar outlook to you in the first place. This isnt to say that you wont end up educating the lower echalons of society, but they will be less open to being educated in the manner you want them to be.

That's why you must avoid having a lower class. Don't have many poor or complete lawless area, problem solved.

But I wonder what is your background : you don't seems very informed on what it is to live in the lower class.

I grew up in an urban deprived area with parents that struggled to make ends meet. They were both working class, with no advanced education, and neither of thier families owned thier own homes. It wasnt the worst upbringing as I had a family that loved me, but often went without when compared to my peers. They tought me right from wrong, and that hard work was the key to get where I wanted - for me this meant education. I have not forgotten my roots and am proud to be from my hometown. More than that love the fact that I can offer my children better than I had as a child.

Vector, I am quite qualified to comment on this! It is fantastic to shape the minds of the next generation, but do remember that you will in general only come into contact with those that have a similar outlook to you in the first place. This isnt to say that you wont end up educating the lower echalons of society, but they will be less open to being educated in the manner you want them to be.

Given that most of my classmates don't think the way that I do, at all, I have no fear of being useless.

I am sure you wont be! There is no such thing as a useless educator if they have passion in thier ideals. When you are the one in the role of teacher/educator, it is suprising how quickly you get a reputation linked to how you think - this reputation will attract certain types of people, hence how I get the nerdy young socialist boys following me around asking me about wise princes and machiavelli (sp?).  Just be prepared for a random 18 year old to irrationally challenge your ideals with poorly digested material taken from Marx, Engels, Guevarra... lol.

[Phmcw]

I grew up in an urban deprived area with parents that struggled to make ends meet. They were both working class, with no advanced education, and neither of thier families owned thier own homes. It wasnt the worst upbringing as I had a family that loved me, but often went without when compared to my peers. They tought me right from wrong, and that hard work was the key to get where I wanted - for me this meant education. I have not forgotten my roots and am proud to be from my hometown. More than that love the fact that I can offer my children better than I had as a child.

That's funny, I grew in a poor urban area, located in a region who is pretty economically damaged, born from pretty rich parents.
And what I saw what how easy I had everything compared to other. Not materially, my parent are against wasting, no, but if I had a problem in any field I could just ask my parents, I had a computer at 6,  was sent in England for one month when I was 14, could take as much time I wanted at the university...

None of the people I knew as a child made it at the university, and neither did most of those I knew in high school.

My mother did the same as you : she came from a very poor family, and made it to the university.
But seriously, I have things 100X easier.

I know area who are literally rotten, and if I believe statistics, they are nowhere as bad as Tottenham. Still people who live it have a pretty hard time.
We shouldn't let things get as bad as this.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Oh how much better the world would be if we could actually have an enlightened population...

I would agree with the philosopher-kings approach, other than the fact that I'm totally terrified of the inherent corruptibility in such a system.  I don't trust any one person with the wheel.  I'd like to, but... no.

So the next option is to be a government that attempts to educate its populace.  It's not a guarantee, but I think it's the best we can do without the (considerably greater) dangers of "enlightened dictatorship."

(EDIT: this is, of course, why I'm dead set on being a teacher of some sort.  If I don't become a professor, I will do other teaching work)

Indeed, democratic government isn't without it's faults, but it's the least worst of all competing systems. It only works, however, with an educated and informed populace. Stupidity and ignorance are a bigger threat to democracy than any amount of guns or bombs.

As shown beautifully by us in the UK at the moment where the "underclass" are doing what they do best, and ruin it all for the rest of us.

If it were just the "underclass" (incidentally not a term I'm comfortable to use) you could kinda understand but it's not. There's huge swathe of middle class, university graduate ignoramuses (ignorami?) out there screwing things up far more than riots ever could, because unlike rioters, they possess influence but not the knowledge or understanding to use it constructively.

[ChairmanPoo]

university graduate ignoramuses

That's a bit of an oxymoron.

[Nadaka]

Try being a university graduate with a $50k to $100k student loan debt and unable to find a job for 2 to 5 years. They won't hire you for menial work because they think you will just quit when you get a professional offer, and every professional entry level position is filled with someone with 15+ years experience because they needed the work after their company went bankrupt. If you are lucky, you can mooch off your parents. If you are not? Rioting in the streets looks like a pretty damn good idea.

I don't know what its like in England, but that is what it has been like in the US for a while now in quite a few fields.

[G-Flex]

university graduate ignoramuses

That's a bit of an oxymoron.

Idiocy doesn't know any boundaries between various walks of life. You'd think it does, but that doesn't appear to be the case.