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[Mindmaker]

@Virex:
Having somebody thurst the hand down your pants, only to hear: "You're a man, what are you complaining about?" afterwards, isn't nice either.
True story, by the way.

If equality, then on both sides please.

[Heliman]

I just don't think it's ethically justifiable to put a whole gender into danger over a minor law change

I still don't get the "endangering women" thing. How the heck is changing the definition of rape going to endanger an entire gender?

It would be a reaffirmation of many men's concept of women as manipulative and heartless (something I hear all around me in case you're wondering where this is comming from), giving credibility to some of their quite insane complaints about how evil their wife/girlfriend/mistress really is.

What's the phrase I'm looking for? I know, "we didn't start the fire, but the fire's burning." Weather or not you change the law, misogynists are going to keep hating women. Adding "fuel" to their hatred isn't going to change that. They aren't suddenly going to start abusing women because- oh wait you cover that in my next quote.

Plus, "if women like rape then they must like being raped". Women have enough trouble keeping creeps off of their back without the government reaffirming their views and, in their eyes, giving them a carte blanche.

If someone could accept flawed logic like this, then they could easily come up with any number of reasons to rape a woman. The law would change nothing in this respect.

[Virex]

I just don't think it's ethically justifiable to put a whole gender into danger over a minor law change

I still don't get the "endangering women" thing. How the heck is changing the definition of rape going to endanger an entire gender?

It would be a reaffirmation of many men's concept of women as manipulative and heartless (something I hear all around me in case you're wondering where this is comming from), giving credibility to some of their quite insane complaints about how evil their wife/girlfriend/mistress really is.

What's the phrase I'm looking for? I know, "we didn't start the fire, but the fire's burning." Weather or not you change the law, misogynists are going to keep hating women. Adding "fuel" to their hatred isn't going to change that. They aren't suddenly going to start abusing women because- oh wait you cover that in my next quote.

Plus, "if women like rape then they must like being raped". Women have enough trouble keeping creeps off of their back without the government reaffirming their views and, in their eyes, giving them a carte blanche.

If someone could accept flawed logic like this, then they could easily come up with any number of reasons to rape a woman. The law would change nothing in this respect.

Are you sure? It's still a pretty big leap of faith to just hope for the best in this case I'd say. It still feels like we'd be taken a huge risk here and that's not something I'd want to stand for. I still remember the harrowing tales of some 20-odd pages back (long scale) about how 1 in 6 women will be rape victims. Blindly implementing change and hoping for the best is too dangerous in my book, especially if it's potentially adding fuel to the fire of women hatred. Remember that I'm not opposed to the law, but that I think it's not worth the media attention and the results of that and as such I won't feel right about supporting the law unless I am absolutely sure there will be no bad side effects.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I'm honestly starting to be a bit weirded out by how quickly you all steer this topic back to rape after we finally manage to discuss something else.

[Virex]

I'm honestly starting to be a bit weirded out by how quickly you all steer this topic back to rape after we finally manage to discuss something else.

It's the most extreme thing out there that we can discuss. As such it has a similar attraction on the discussion as Godwin's law and the Tea Party, you can't evade it.

[Andir]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but let's talk about the law as if it were car theft instead of rape.  (Yes, I realize there's different emotional outcomes, but abstracting the act out of the discussion may bring a more logical conclusion.)

[Kay12]

Virex, we're not assuming the best, but you're definitely assuming the worst of the male gender. You're using an imaginary group of extreme sexist chauvinists as a scarecrow without any facts. Also, have you taken into account that gender equality can never truly exist as long as laws differentiate crimes by sex?

Also, about the one in six - as I already told you once, I hadn't heard of it before and here's what I found by Googling. 1 in 6 men. And, at least according to the US sex offender registry link I posted a few pages back, 60% of sexual assaults of male minors featured a female assailant.


Virex, I also think your overall agenda, by what I've understood by debating with you for several pages now, is misguided, sexist and overprotective. You can't just ignore and silence every misandric aspect of the society.

[klingon13524]

I'm honestly starting to be a bit weirded out by how quickly you all steer this topic back to rape after we finally manage to discuss something else.

It's the most extreme thing out there that we can discuss. As such it has a similar attraction on the discussion as Godwin's law and the Tea Party, you can't evade it.

Just as Hitler couldn't evade losing WWII after he made the mistake of attacking Russia.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Godwin's law, I know right?

[kaijyuu]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but let's talk about the law as if it were car theft instead of rape.  (Yes, I realize there's different emotional outcomes, but abstracting the act out of the discussion may bring a more logical conclusion.)

I'm not sure how lowering the magnitude of what we're talking about makes any difference. Misandry and misogyny are both equally reprehensible, no matter how big or small.


Frankly there's few topics that enrage me more than this one, so I'll step out before I start insulting people. The others here seem to have it well in hand, anyway.

[KaelGotDwarves]

It's just that there's such a plethora of progressive issues - and well, even with the other reoccuring topics I don't get this vague uncomfortable feeling with some of the views expressed here about rape.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but let's talk about the law as if it were car theft instead of rape.  (Yes, I realize there's different emotional outcomes, but abstracting the act out of the discussion may bring a more logical conclusion.)

... like that. Fuck if that isn't one of the most unbashed terrible objectifying posts I've ever read, I'm outta here.

[Andir]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but let's talk about the law as if it were car theft instead of rape.  (Yes, I realize there's different emotional outcomes, but abstracting the act out of the discussion may bring a more logical conclusion.)

I'm not sure how lowering the magnitude of what we're talking about makes any difference. Misandry and misogyny are both equally reprehensible, no matter how big or small.

I guess it's more of a question of the logic over the actual crime.  Arguing that car theft done to a woman is any different than a car theft done to a man... make sense?

Fuck if that isn't one of the most unbashed terrible objectifying posts I've ever read, I'm outta here.

Sorry you read it that way... I'm simply trying to direct the argument to the false logic that any one sex should be favored in legislation on any matter.

[Heliman]

Are you sure? It's still a pretty big leap of faith to just hope for the best in this case I'd say. It still feels like we'd be taken a huge risk here and that's not something I'd want to stand for. I still remember the harrowing tales of some 20-odd pages back (long scale) about how 1 in 6 women will be rape victims. Blindly implementing change and hoping for the best is too dangerous in my book, especially if it's potentially adding fuel to the fire of women hatred. Remember that I'm not opposed to the law, but that I think it's not worth the media attention and the results of that and as such I won't feel right about supporting the law unless I am absolutely sure there will be no bad side effects.

Quid quo pro, It's pretty paranoid to think that a misogynist rape fest will happen if we change a law that would allow women to sexually abuse men without repercussion, that any misguided, woman hating individual would totally push the passing of.

No-one knows the full extent of the side effects of any law that is passed in any government ever before the law is passed. I mean, when we gave black people the right to vote, who knew what could have happened! They would've used their new found power to overpower us white folk and take over america! No wonder the KKK were so against that. (note, I'm not trying to equate you to the kkk, but it's the same kind of reasoning.)

[RedKing]

It's just that there's such a plethora of progressive issues - and well, even with the other reoccuring topics I don't get this vague uncomfortable feeling with some of the views expressed here about rape.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but let's talk about the law as if it were car theft instead of rape.  (Yes, I realize there's different emotional outcomes, but abstracting the act out of the discussion may bring a more logical conclusion.)

... like that. Fuck if that isn't one of the most unbashed terrible objectifying posts I've ever read, I'm outta here.

For one thing, "Grand Theft Auto" becomes a terrible name for a video game.

To combine this topic with some progressive joy, noted polygamist, cult leader and child rapist Warren Jeffs got sentenced to life in prison today. Hopefully with a couple of burly cellmates eager to "spiritually marry" Rev. Jeffs and consummate that marriage the way he did with young girls.

[Kay12]

While that would certainly be poetic justice, I consider rape as a form of punishment barbaric. Of course, a part of me would enjoy the poetic justice and irony of it, but I don't consider prison rapes of even heinous criminals to be lawful.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Sorry you read it that way... I'm simply trying to direct the argument to the false logic that any one sex should be favored in legislation on any matter.

Let me explain to you nicely before I excuse myself from the thread: in the terms of the "law" you were refering to, you equated rape- someone getting their body used against their will, with someone losing their car, an object.

I'm sure the problem isn't with how I read your post. I'm horrified you could say anything to objectify rape victims bodies like that and then passively aggressively tell me you're sorry I took it that way as if it's my fault for getting offended by your terrible statement.

EDIT- That's the attitude that makes this thread uncomfortable.