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[sonerohi]

You cannot monitor every single bit of speech. But if you dam up the flow of hate speech enough, you can more easily deal with what trickles through.

You mean all speech?  There's still no way to know that "wheat" implies "death" when someone writes that word to someone else.  That's my argument.  You can't filter out hate speech.

You can try your damnedest and stop a majority.

[KaelGotDwarves]

How?  It's impossible to police every forum (public and private) to find out if someone is spreading hate... and even if you could process every word typed/said by everyone in the world, how do you know it's not coded?

You could just do it the way it's actually done in the US, and declare the limit to be anything that is a call to violence, or that actively incites violence. This seems to work well enough. I guess.

And that once people act, they go through a court system that judges intent. It works. It isn't the best. But it's better than sitting around allowing such hate to spread which explodes at a certain point.

I also refer you to Leafsnail's post, which covers another point I was going to make.

There isn't much I can do about being too young to vote other than aging, Kael.

See, this hits a pet peeve. The democratic process isn't simply voting. Our constitutional republic/representative democracy in influenced in more ways than votes. Fund-raise, write your representatives and senators, write your county, city, participate in demonstrations, talk to people, go outside and volunteer your time and participate.

At least make an effort before saying everything is useless and that the system is rigged.

[G-Flex]

The problem with trying to stop all hate speech is that hate is far too fundamental a human quality to just plain stop. You can stop it when it becomes too problematic (e.g. inciting violence), but you aren't going to stop hate in general, nor do I think it's healthy or productive to even try.

[Andir]

I also feel that people need to be able to express their hate in order to resolve it.

[Aklyon]

Is Progressive Rage the chill and relaxed kind of rage? otherwise the title doesn't make sense

[penguinofhonor]

Your body has told you how it is, but you're free to define what ought be in whatever way seems best to you.

This has nothing to do with "oughts". It has to do with what your brain has actually mapped your body as being composed like. Deciding that it would be nice to have wings, or that I ought to have wings, is vastly different from my brain thinking I do have wings, which is exactly what I'm talking about.

To reiterate, this has nothing to do with what people want. It has to do with the brain mapping itself to parts that aren't there, or aren't there in the form that the brain expects. It's like how amputees get phantom limb pains and stuff like that; it's nothing to do with "I should still have a leg" and more to do with "god dammit I REALLY FEEL LIKE A LEG SHOULD BE THERE".

To reiterate, again, this has nothing to do with personal choice or preference in any way, what we're talking about are very fundamental aspects of how the brain maps itself to different parts of your body. The hypothetical wing-person I'm talking about doesn't "choose" that he "should" have wings any more than you "choose" that you "should" have two feet with toes on them. You cannot just will away the brain's somatic mapping, or will new parts into it. It doesn't work that way, and has absolutely nothing to do with choice, "ought"s, or desires. It has nothing to do with the conscious mind at all, or even with the more cognitive aspects of the unconscious mind.

But it's not as simple as "your body thinks it has a penis when it doesn't". There are transgender men who are perfectly fine with the body they were born with, only choosing to dress and act differently to express their identity. There are transsexual men who felt the need to go to various lengths to feel more comfortable with their body.

I mean, I just feel like you're grouping transsexual people who feel the need to alter their bodies separately from transgender people, when I really think they're the same thing and each individual expresses their identity differently.

[Bauglir]

Neither is more sensible than the other. The inverse of what you said would be: "To classify it as a physical disorder seems to me to be indicating that the problem lies in how her body is put together, and that her mind is fine the way it is. If it must be classified, it's far more sensible to call it a mental disorder, because you're not insisting that a person's body is somehow wrong." This is exactly as reasonable for exactly the same reasons.

You're operating from the assumption that you can't consider a person's identity to be "wrong" in any way. This is false. A person's identity can very easily be inconsistent with reality in one way or another, via delusion or psychosis or, in this case, something more fundamental. The identity does not match the anatomical reality, and the anatomical reality does not match the identity. Neither is a problem except with regard to the other, and in that regard, they're both problematic.

Except it isn't as reasonable; a body is an object, not a thinking entity. It has no identity to be challenged. If it's wrong, that's simply an empirical condition to be worked around. It carries no necessary moral weight. Changing the definition of a mind always carries negative moral weight, and so is only acceptable when necessarily coupled with some greater moral good (such as preventing, say, a person with a delusion of wings from leaping off a building while trying to fly, or a serial killer from stabbing people in the face). If there's no need to insist that a mind is wrong, then don't.

I get that they're only wrong because of the disconnect, but since you (as an outside observer) can arbitrarily define either gender as what ought to be (as you've made clear), and the person in question necessarily has an existing belief as to what ought to be, the conclusion is obviously in favor of the only thinking entity that can put forth a meaningful belief. The actual nature of the body is merely what is, and that's only what ought to be when it isn't hurting anyone.

Yeah, I do ascribe inherent worth to the sanctity minds that I don't to material objects. We might differ on that, and if that's the case then I don't think we're going to get anywhere without a massively long argument about the fundamentals of morality that is far beyond the scope of the thread. I'm not operating on the assumption that a mind cannot be declared wrong, only that it should not unless all other possible declarations are insensible.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I think it's perfectly healthy and productive to attempt to weed out hate as well as hate speech.

If you can turn one racist, sexist, prejudiced person that is inciting violence or acting violently towards others into someone that understands other people are in fact individuals like them, then you have just helped people, families, friends, co-workers, all of the such that you have never met and will never know that you helped.

Small actions by us have many, many reactions that we can barely begin to comprehend and understand.

[sonerohi]

There isn't much I can do about being too young to vote other than aging, Kael.

See, this hits a pet peeve. The democratic process isn't simply voting. Our constitutional republic/representative democracy in influenced in more ways that votes. Fund-raise, write your representatives and senators, write your county, city, participate in demonstrations, talk to people, go outside and volunteer your time and participate.

At least make an effort before saying everything is useless and that the system is rigged.

I can attest that this is a great deal harder than it should be. I have talked to my mayor, in person and in private, and he simply gave no shits about anything I said to him. He was operating under a motive other than the one he presented to the public, and I simply had no way of divining that motive to appeal to him properly. I've written my Congressmen and received my letters back. I may just be the one unlucky guy, but I suspect it happens more than it should.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

=

There isn't much I can do about being too young to vote other than aging, Kael.

See, this hits a pet peeve. The democratic process isn't simply voting. Our constitutional republic/representative democracy in influenced in more ways that votes. Fund-raise, write your representatives and senators, write your county, city, participate in demonstrations, talk to people, go outside and volunteer your time and participate.

At least make an effort before saying everything is useless and that the system is rigged.

Most of that list is extremely difficult in my situation. Between the time I spend at school, on my homework from school, and asleep, it's usually either having free time or doing something else, and by that point I usually don't care enough about whatever something else is in the situation to choose it over having some respite.

I have written people who are part of the government before, but in truth I think it's pretty likely that nothing people write to them ever gets read. Too busy taking eight month vacations, I imagine. I can't go to demonstrations because I don't care about most of them enough to walk across the whole damn city and I don't own a car.

The system isn't rigged, but it is corrupt, not by a purposeful intention but by most people being unable to resist their vices. Greed runs the USA these days, and when you aren't a major corporation there just isn't any keeping up.

[Andir]

I think it's perfectly healthy and productive to attempt to weed out hate as well as hate speech.

If you can turn one racist, sexist, prejudiced person that is inciting violence or acting violently towards others into someone that understands other people are in fact individuals like them, then you have just helped people, families, friends, co-workers, all of the such that you have never met and will never know that you helped.

Small actions by us have many, many reactions that we can barely begin to comprehend and understand.

I totally agree, but I do not agree that hate (any) speech should be censored.  You'll never know that Joe is a bigot unless you let him say it in plain language.  At that point, you can treat the problem... approach the person and question their statements.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I can attest that this is a great deal harder than it should be. I have talked to my mayor, in person and in private, and he simply gave no shits about anything I said to him. He was operating under a motive other than the one he presented to the public, and I simply had no way of divining that motive to appeal to him properly. I've written my Congressmen and received my letters back. I may just be the one unlucky guy, but I suspect it happens more than it should.

No one said it was easy.

Start small, start with what you can do, start with where the changes and actions you take in your life directly, positively change the lives of others.

Then inspire others to do the same.

It's all you can do, really.

[sonerohi]

I can attest that this is a great deal harder than it should be. I have talked to my mayor, in person and in private, and he simply gave no shits about anything I said to him. He was operating under a motive other than the one he presented to the public, and I simply had no way of divining that motive to appeal to him properly. I've written my Congressmen and received my letters back. I may just be the one unlucky guy, but I suspect it happens more than it should.

No one said it was easy.

Start small, start with what you can do, start with where the changes and actions you take in your life directly, positively change the lives of others.

Then inspire others to do the same.

It's all you can do, really.

I feel you. I try to get my friends and family off their asses, and succeed here and there. It's just depressing to know that when I throw all my influence into things, it amounts to one vote (in two years) and $50 of campaign money, and that other contenders in the ring are throwing around tens of thousands. It's like, I can get a hundred people to march around the city and still not measure up to the strut of one business guy, and it feels extremely pathetic to be trying.

[Heron TSG]

But if you can get those 100 other people to vote with you, that's worth far more than $10,000. All the money is is incentive to vote. Voting is what gives you the power. That corporate executive can only vote but once.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That corporate executive can only vote but once.

And give a road made of gold to whomever he wants to win.