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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Censorship is, by definition, abuse.

[lordcooper]

This thread is awesome now.  It just makes me feel so relaxed, you know what I mean?

[Aklyon]

Everyone's relaxed state is amplified by this thread now?

[G-Flex]

Any sort of censorship can be abused.

Right, which is why I don't agree with it, but an arbitrary government-defined censorship filter is still better when it's at least voluntary. But yeah, definitely not something I consider a good idea. If something like this is done, it should only be with complete transparency on part of the regulating agency, if at all.

Censorship is, by definition, abuse.

Not necessarily, no. I'm totally cool with, say, censoring porn from my internet if my hypothetical young kids are using it. Censorship has value even if that value is limited and highly contextual.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Agreed. I would also go on to say that freedom of speech isn't always the best policy when it comes to hate speech and inciting hateful actions against others.

[Vector]

Gender Identity Disorder Reform.

So apparently there is a movement to remove it from the DSM-IV and instead change our culture to increase acceptance of gender-benders!  That's pretty cool!


Oh, and dear Verizon: Feh.

This thread is awesome now.  It just makes me feel so relaxed, you know what I mean?

Everyone's relaxed state is amplified by this thread now?

Hehehe, always glad to help!

[Andir]

Not necessarily, no. I'm totally cool with, say, censoring porn from my internet if my hypothetical young kids are using it. Censorship has value even if that value is limited and highly contextual.

Sure, protecting a minor is part of parenting...

It boils down to a distribution of power though.  You are handing the power to censor that information to the parents.  There's a barrier there that needs to be respected.  I think the same concept applies to schooling.  Parents should have the final say.

Other forms of censorship where a governing body is involved just opens up the pot to corruption.

[G-Flex]

Gender Identity Disorder Reform.

So apparently there is a movement to remove it from the DSM-IV and instead change our culture to increase acceptance of gender-benders!  That's pretty cool!

Then what do you use in place of it? In the case of transsexuals, if a person's neurology doesn't agree with his anatomy and it severely impacts to the quality of that person's health, that is a disorder, by definition.

Also, if someone's non-normative gender identity itself causes them distress due to internal factors (such as cognitive dissonance regarding their own identity vs. what they expect of themselves), that could/should be considered disordered as well.

Other forms of censorship where a governing body is involved just opens up the pot to corruption.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's room for corruption here as well.

[Vector]

Because nominally, much like being black in a cruel environment is not a mental disorder, neither should be trans-ness or homosexuality.

[KaelGotDwarves]

It's interesting to note that in supposedly ass-backwards un-progressive places like Thailand, the culture of gender normatives is completely... well, off-kilter, and it's okay.

Buddhism and South East Asian culture is quite forgiving in this regard, and the idea of ladyboys, kathoeys, and various gender benders roam freely out in the open without nearly as much opposition as could be said about most places. Certain places in the capital of Thailand have a third restroom and it isn't too uncommon to see effeminate boys preening themselves in the women's restroom. Gave my sister quite a few shocks at certain times.

EDIT: Photos I took of a newspaper clipping regarding the Miss Tiffany Pageant, a yearly prime-time beauty pageant for kathoeys broadcasted in Thailand much like the Miss America Pageant in the US.

Spoiler: Yup, all "men" (click to show/hide)

[Truean]

[ Only fear from seeing Toady himself here twice and undercurrents somehow remain even after he's gone, could force me over my immense nervousness about giving an honest off the cuff "closing argument." Takes a shy, shaking breath before talking to you, faking the confidence at times but enough I hope]

   "There was a ... pet shop I went to a bit as a kid. The owner let me play with the kittens, probably  hoping I'd get attached and buy one. Anyhow, we'd talk about her animals when it wasn't busy. People bought up these ...really pretty sounding songbirds faster than she could get more. I asked her why she didn't keep more around; she laughed and said,

"They're pretty alone but too many and they all screech."

   We don't know how to get along; us or the birds. Everything in society devolves into screeching  and needing to be separated: roommates, coworkers, our families, spouses, or other people in general. Eventually, our best answer is to leave, move out, divorce ...or the dreadful last resort: stay there in misery (it loves our company). We spend our lives increasingly alone longing for companionship we constantly distance ourselves from. This doesn't work, the screeching or the leaving....
   This is society's biggest problem, causing all it's others. Economically, socially, architecturally it makes sense to share things and all the big reasons we don't are "we can't share things with others cause they'll screw it up." Workplace fridges gets raided, roommates are completely inconsiderate, families even dread to be around each other once a year around holidays, and this is our new normal....
   We can't find common ground. Geography lesson, consideration is the only compass to it--consideration of ideas, of others, of ourselves.... Consider ideas--the substance beneath the shitty slogans. Consider others--why they think as they do. Consider yourself--you only have so much time, will you screech it away?
   I ...went to Columbus, stayed at a friend's house for the bar exam. She was shocked; her husband never... politely conversed with anyone ... except me. He is a conservative, strict constitutionalist, and my ideological opposite. I never asked him to say he was wrong; there was never any chance of that. I might as well ask him to fly with his arms.... I shyly asked him if he would agree my views were sane. There was a chance he might say yes and thankfully he did. I am invited back and he has kindly lifted his ban on me as a woman in his home. I was afraid his disapproval would prevent me from being friends with his wife; I am very grateful he does not....
   To those in the majority here, do you even realize your immense power to drown the rest of us out without even meaning or trying to? Perhaps you yourself don't do this, but others do and it is immensely painful to us. Clients called a female lawyer in my firm "the other secretary," for years; no one did anything.... This may be our only outlet to speak about this freely; its mine.... Even so, that doesn't justify our, the minority, being insensitive to you. How horrid it would be to become worse than what hates us, we know better and don't have that excuse....
   We might be able to harmonize a little instead of screech if we can find common ground.... I don't claim to know the way by memory, but I've seen it and I hope to find it again. It's the only place on earth you can't enter alone, but it's worth it.... I promise you that. Thank you...."
____________________________________________________________

Edit: Thank you Vector, for posting the link on the movement to no longer have transsexualism as a mental disorder. It is still a medical disorder though, as surgery is required to treat it, especially if you want insurance to pay for that surgery, which unfortunately it doesn't currently. I'm not insane.... I just need some treatment....

[Bauglir]

Yeah, actually, I do have a problem with most censorship. Pornography from children, for instance, is something I feel should be a parent's responsibility. It's perfectly reasonable for a government or corporation to design a mechanism (such as parental control software) to accomplish it, but actually implementing it ought to be a parent's decision. If nothing else, I feel that giving up that responsibility is a sign (but not absolute proof) of lazy parenting (as terrible a phrase as that is, given how often it's bandied about to describe pretty much anything). I can see situations where there might be such a detrimental effect on the child that it's not acceptable to allow a parent to fail that much, but it seems very much a corner case to me.

I say this as a non-parent, though, so I'm very much open to an argument from someone who understands the stresses involved better than I do.

Similarly, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with any organization, governmental or private, deciding what's acceptable speech based on its degree of hate. I'm not saying such speech shouldn't be argued against, but I don't think an authoritative ban is going to solve any real problems, and its potential for abuse is far too great to be outweighed by the slim chance of the good it would do.

EDIT: Oh, and on the disorder definition, it seems to me that the disorder is a physical one, not a mental one. The problem is the body failing to match the mind, not vice versa.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Similarly, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with any organization, governmental or private, deciding what's acceptable speech based on its degree of hate. I'm not saying such speech shouldn't be argued against, but I don't think an authoritative ban is going to solve any real problems, and its potential for abuse is far too great to be outweighed by the slim chance of the good it would do.

Implemented properly it prevents the sort of cultural institutions that leads to genocide. I'm perfectly okay with censoring hate speech.

[G-Flex]

Because nominally, much like being black in a cruel environment is not a mental disorder, neither should be trans-ness or homosexuality.

You misinterpreted what I said, even though I tried to make it perfectly clear.

I was specifying traits that have nothing to do with how society treats you. I was specifically trying to identify internal problems, not external ones.

If your neurophysiology expects you to have a certain set of parts in some way, but your body has a different set of parts, and it severely affects the quality of your life, that is a disorder, and has nothing to do with how society treats you, strictly being a result of your own anatomy and neurology.

If your own ideas about gender conflict with your actual gender identity, or you otherwise suffer serious distress over your own identity as it relates to your concept of gender, and it affects your quality of life and self-esteem significantly, then that is also a disorder, regardless of whether or not society played a role in making you that way. "Has a disorder" does not mean "is to blame"; even if a psychiatric problem is the result of poor/hostile environment (which is often the case, especially in children), it is still a legitimate psychiatric problem.

So no, being black in an environment cruel towards black people isn't a mental disorder. But, to continue with your analogy, if being black in a cruel environment leads you to have a lot of self-loathing or other internalized uneasiness regarding your race, or leads you to develop social anxiety, then those things can be considered disorders.

EDIT: Oh, and on the disorder definition, it seems to me that the disorder is a physical one, not a mental one. The problem is the body failing to match the mind, not vice versa.

How can you even draw that distinction? The body is one thing, and the brain expects another thing to be there? Neither one can be considered objectively "problematic" except in relation to the other. Whether you consider it a neurological/psychological problem or a physical one is completely arbitrary, as you could go about it from either angle.

[Vector]

Right.  But what is the fundamental thing preventing trans people from being unable to live as the other gender, even without HRT and SRS?

If I understand correctly, for many people physical sex is one thing, but a lot of transitioning has to do with other things, forbidden only by societal pressure.