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[Kay12]

I would perhaps consider myself a feminist if it wasn't for the two other types of feminists that unfortunately make up a sizeable portion of my friends. Basically, the types I know are...

"Men and woman - exactly the same" - type, who believe that men and women are exactly the same apart from the external differences and functionality in reproduction. I think this is political correctness taken one or two steps too far, though. They draw the naïve assumption that since men and women are both equally valuable as humans, there can be no real difference between them.

"Fight the oppressors" - type, whom I just can't come to agreement with. They've already labeled me as their enemy because I'm a member of the oppressor gender. Basically everything I discuss with them ends with this...
She: "You just can't understand 'cause you're male."
Me: "Lay off that gender card, please."
She: "Your gender used it first!"

In my opinion, that's about as sexist as you can get.

"Hurh I am Macho, Big muscles, I kill things good!" is not any better than "I am blond and have a d-cup!"

Difference is that one is a realistic portrayal of the ambitions of about half the world population and the other one is turning the character into a sex doll...

[citation needed]

Are you honestly saying that that's the universal goal of the male sex? I'd sooner be half as awesome scientist as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

[Siquo]

I am (again) with Lysabild here, for the following reason:

There is a school of Feminism that says (let me look it up):

Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, some feminists argue that men's liberation is therefore a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.

And that is the only stance I will take seriously. Any positive discrimination, or "we need to make up for previous wrongs" creates just more imbalance and is detrimental to an (read: my) ideal world of equality. So yeah, all this focusing on female breast-instead-of-depth is creating the illusion that male characters do get in-depth character building instead of muscle-building.

Truthiness is: most of the demographic does not care about the feelings of their characters, they want to kill zombies and blow stuff up.

FakeEdit: Ninja'd by Kay12

I think the issue is this: Most guys dont mind thier gender as being represented by overly macho images. Most females do not like thier gender being represented by bimbo ideals.

Untrue, or there'd be a lot more women being vocal about it. There's really a lot of women who are okay with the stereotype, whether you like it or not.

I'd sooner be half as awesome as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

Debatable... Although that just gives credit to Virex's assumption that I do not support, on principle.

[MonkeyHead]

Untrue, or there'd be a lot more women being vocal about it. There's really a lot of women who are okay with the stereotype, whether you like it or not.

IMHO most women would be offended if you referred to them as bimbo sex objects... granted, some (the WAG culture as we call it in the UK) aspire to it as they might not know any better or have been overly influenced by the media.

I'd sooner be half as awesome scientist as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

Fair enough, but if someone said to you that you looked as rugged as Brad Pitt in fight club, would you complain? Probably not... but saying to a woman that she looks as "beautiful" as (generic hollywood star) comes of as a bit sleazy. Yes, I know, gross oversimplification and assumptions made...

[ChairmanPoo]

IMHO most women would be offended if you referred to them as bimbo sex objects.

Yeah, and most men would be offended if you referred to them as brainless masses of muscles. I would, at least.

t saying to a woman that she looks as "beautiful" as (generic hollywood star) comes of as a bit sleazy

I disagree.

[Virex]

IMHO most women would be offended if you referred to them as bimbo sex objects.

Yeah, and most men would be offended if you referred to them as brainless masses of muscles. I would, at least.

Considering that the average men dedicate pretty much all their higher brain functions to their genitals, I don't think that's such a bad characterization. Of course you have every right to cry out loud and act as if someone is trying to assassinate your ego if you really must...

"Fight the oppressors" - type, whom I just can't come to agreement with. They've already labeled me as their enemy because I'm a member of the oppressor gender. Basically everything I discuss with them ends with this...
She: "You just can't understand 'cause you're male."
Me: "Lay off that gender card, please."
She: "Your gender used it first!"

In my opinion, that's about as sexist as you can get.

I don't get the problem with this. Men are the dominant gender. If it is even possible to discriminate against the dominant group, then certainly it is not something we should worry about.
Besides, we as men have no fucking clue whatsoever as to the hardships women have to live through on a daily basis. I would expect a little more consideration for a (in my opinion) very valid viewpoint. The last thing we need to do is apply more demeaning descriptors to well-meaning women. Just because she's a women doesn't mean you can accuse her of "oppressing" you or try to stiffle her freedom of speech just for stating her mind.

"Hurh I am Macho, Big muscles, I kill things good!" is not any better than "I am blond and have a d-cup!"

Difference is that one is a realistic portrayal of the ambitions of about half the world population and the other one is turning the character into a sex doll...

[citation needed]

Are you honestly saying that that's the universal goal of the male sex? I'd sooner be half as awesome scientist as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

One thing I've found is that those who frequent Bay12 differ markedly from the norm. I would kindly advise you to refrain from using yourself as a reference point when talking about the general populace.

[Kay12]

I'd sooner be half as awesome as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

Debatable... Although that just gives credit to Virex's assumption that I do not support, on principle.

How so? Everybody wants to be something, many people want to be special or useful somehow, but it's important to note that being a macho superhero isn't the goal of too many men. Out of my friends I know close enough to say for sure, I'd have a Tolkien, a Turing, two Stallmans (Stallmen?), a Freddie Mercury and a Darwin. Not a single Duke Nukem. There are men who want to be Duke Nukems, and there are women who want to be sex objects. Both, I assume, are a minority compared to more "boring" goals.

I'd sooner be half as awesome scientist as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

Fair enough, but if someone said to you that you looked as rugged as Brad Pitt in fight club, would you complain? Probably not... but saying to a woman that she looks as "beautiful" as (generic hollywood star) comes of as a bit sleazy. Yes, I know, gross oversimplification and assumptions made...

Yes, if I was a well-built scientist instead of the thin rod I am, I would definitely complain if I was trying to portray a serious message (lecture, for example) but people were only caring about my gorgeous looks.

"Fight the oppressors" - type, whom I just can't come to agreement with. They've already labeled me as their enemy because I'm a member of the oppressor gender. Basically everything I discuss with them ends with this...
She: "You just can't understand 'cause you're male."
Me: "Lay off that gender card, please."
She: "Your gender used it first!"

In my opinion, that's about as sexist as you can get.

I don't get the problem with this. Men are the dominant gender. If it is even possible to discriminate against the dominant group, then certainly it is not something we should worry about.
Besides, we as men have no fucking clue whatsoever as to the hardships women have to live through on a daily basis. I would expect a little more consideration for a (in my opinion) very valid viewpoint. The last thing we need to do is apply more demeaning descriptors to well-meaning women. Just because she's a women doesn't mean you can accuse her of "oppressing" you or try to stiffle her freedom of speech just for stating her mind.

"Hurh I am Macho, Big muscles, I kill things good!" is not any better than "I am blond and have a d-cup!"

Difference is that one is a realistic portrayal of the ambitions of about half the world population and the other one is turning the character into a sex doll...

[citation needed]

Are you honestly saying that that's the universal goal of the male sex? I'd sooner be half as awesome scientist as Alan Turing than twice as macho as Duke Nukem.

One thing I've found is that those who frequent Bay12 differ markedly from the norm. I would kindly advise you to refrain from using yourself as a reference point when talking about the general populace.

So, you don't get problem with women discriminating me because of my gender?

And again, where do you draw your assumption that most men want to be Duke Nukems? Or is it one of those "prove me wrong" things?

[MonkeyHead]

I geuss the point I am trying to make is that the general perception of the male stereotype portrayed by various forms of media IMHO is a taken as a positive one to most (not all) of the poeple it is directed at. I think that the reverse applies for the female one. What sums it up perfectly for me is they Lynx adverts that have a bit of a cult following in the UK - they typically feature a slightly weedy guy, who through the magic of manly deoderant causing him to strut like an adonis is able to attract women, and all of these women are disturbingly attractive - implying that men need to be buff to be attractive (most defenitly a tendancy I have noticed in "lad" culture in the UK - the sort of "bloke" who reads Nuts magazine), and that the only woman worth attracting are the 34-26-34 types. As a non-stereotypical man it bothers me that people think I need to be like that. I can only imagine what a woman would make of it...

[Virex]

So, you don't get problem with women discriminating me because of my gender?

I don't see why there should be anything wrong with that?[/quote]

[ECrownofFire]

IMHO most women would be offended if you referred to them as bimbo sex objects.

Yeah, and most men would be offended if you referred to them as brainless masses of muscles. I would, at least.

Considering that the average men dedicate pretty much all their higher brain functions to their genitals, I don't think that's such a bad characterization. Of course you have every right to cry out loud and act as if someone is trying to assassinate your ego if you really must...

"Fight the oppressors" - type, whom I just can't come to agreement with. They've already labeled me as their enemy because I'm a member of the oppressor gender. Basically everything I discuss with them ends with this...
She: "You just can't understand 'cause you're male."
Me: "Lay off that gender card, please."
She: "Your gender used it first!"

In my opinion, that's about as sexist as you can get.

I don't get the problem with this. Men are the dominant gender. If it is even possible to discriminate against the dominant group, then certainly it is not something we should worry about.
Besides, we as men have no fucking clue whatsoever as to the hardships women have to live through on a daily basis. I would expect a little more consideration for a (in my opinion) very valid viewpoint. The last thing we need to do is apply more demeaning descriptors to well-meaning women. Just because she's a women doesn't mean you can accuse her of "oppressing" you or try to stiffle her freedom of speech just for stating her mind.

It's easily possible to discriminate against anyone. For example, a club doesn't allow whites, or a club doesn't allow blacks, women, men, whatever. It's still discrimination, it doesn't matter who's discriminated against. It is definitely something to worry about, because it just creates more divisions between groups. The more of X that dislike Y, the more of Y dislike X. It creates a feedback loop.

[Siquo]

Just because she's a women doesn't mean you can accuse her of "oppressing" you or try to stifle her freedom of speech just for stating her mind.

But if she's not for equality, then she's just as bigoted as the ones she argues against, the difference being that one is a majority and the other is not.

It's great to be pro-female/gay/black/muslim/name your minority, as long as you're not becoming anti-male/straight/white/christian/name your majority. That just makes you look stupid, and hurts your cause more than that it helps.

Monkeyhead: how about "There are members of both sexes that dislike their stereotypes"? Or even expand that to "There are people who dislike their steretypes"? Because that's all it is. I like some of my stereotypes (male ones such as "is good at technical stuff", "strong", and I dislike others that I can't really make up right now).


Ninja's: Christ, people, stop posting, can't you see I'm typing here! 

[Virex]

It's easily possible to discriminate against anyone. For example, a club doesn't allow whites, or a club doesn't allow blacks, women, men, whatever. It's still discrimination, it doesn't matter who's discriminated against. It is definitely something to worry about, because it just creates more divisions between groups. The more of X that dislike Y, the more of Y dislike X. It creates a feedback loop.

So you're saying that women are forcing men to discriminate against them by speaking their mind? Or is there some other point you're trying to make?

Just because she's a women doesn't mean you can accuse her of "oppressing" you or try to stifle her freedom of speech just for stating her mind.

But if she's not for equality, then she's just as bigoted as the ones she argues against, the difference being that one is a majority and the other is not.

It's great to be pro-female/gay/black/muslim/name your minority, as long as you're not becoming anti-male/straight/white/christian/name your majority. That just makes you look stupid, and hurts your cause more than that it helps.

So you're saying people should just shut up and cater to the opinion of the majority? Because to me it looks like you're trying to tell people with valid viewpoints that they can't have them because some assholes take their opinions the wrong way?

[Kay12]

So, you don't get problem with women discriminating me because of my gender?

I don't see why there should be anything wrong with that?

So, you see nothing wrong with sexism? Are you ok with other forms of discrimination as well?

[ECrownofFire]

It's easily possible to discriminate against anyone. For example, a club doesn't allow whites, or a club doesn't allow blacks, women, men, whatever. It's still discrimination, it doesn't matter who's discriminated against. It is definitely something to worry about, because it just creates more divisions between groups. The more of X that dislike Y, the more of Y dislike X. It creates a feedback loop.

So you're saying that women are forcing men to discriminate against them by speaking their mind? Or is there some other point you're trying to make?

No. My point is that discrimination exists both ways. It's as simple as that. Nobody "deserves" discrimination if they've done nothing to warrant it.

[Virex]

So, you don't get problem with women discriminating me because of my gender?

I don't see why there should be anything wrong with that?

So, you see nothing wrong with sexism? Are you ok with other forms of discrimination as well?
[/quote]
Discrimination is not some magical evil, it is wrong because it disrupts society and causes oppression. You can't cause oppression or disruption by standing up to your oppressors, the worst you'll do is civil disobedience towards an oppressive group. So if you're so dead-set on branding women asserting themselves as sexism, then yes I am very much in favour of that form of sexism.

[Siquo]

So you're saying people should just shut up and cater to the opinion of the majority? Because to me it looks like you're trying to tell people with valid viewpoints that they can't have them because some assholes take their opinions the wrong way?

Eh, no, I did not say that, at all. I'm saying context does not matter for discrimination. An all-female club is just as sexist as an all-male club. Having a shop where jews are not allowed is just as nazi as having a shop where only jews are allowed, etc.