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[Leafsnail]

Hopefully the WBC will just be kicked the fuck out of the Oslo funerals.  Norway doesn't necessarily constitutionally protect their rights to interfere with mourners.

[Bauglir]

Are they smart enough to realize that US law is not universal? We'll find out!

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Are they smart enough to realize that US law is not universal? We'll find out!

Most of Phelp's children are trained lawyers, so....

[Truean]

Are they smart enough to realize that US law is not universal? We'll find out!

Most of Phelp's children are trained lawyers, so....

Sadly true and scary as hell....

[Bauglir]

Are they smart enough to realize that US law is not universal? We'll find out!

Most of Phelp's children are trained lawyers, so....

Sadly true and scary as hell....

My question is actually whether or not they'll claim protection under US law and hope nobody will do anything about it (relying on nobody who cares enough to know enough and nobody who knows enough to care enough), although their actual plan is probably to try and push the envelope so far that somebody involved in keeping them out goes a step too far, as usual.

[Virex]

Careful with GG. Dude could possibly be trollin' given that he may well have been the straw that got the thread locked last time on P 168.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

welcome to the thread, glad you could join.

_{crafty escape!}

What's this?  I have an excuse to report someone for my own sanity and instead I'm just locking the thread?  How generous, Vector!  You even got out the lacy tablecloths and garlic tea for the special occasion!

And the tea cakes with cumin and bacon, Mr. Fillobith!  And the tea cakes with suet and anise.  Now let's all quietly, quietly go down this rabbit hole so we can meet Miss Vector and all her hats for the party.

I've already discussed that with vector, and i am actually here for real conversation.

I haven't been on the computer since two days ago, I think, camp and what not.

Ancient Greece had all kinds of characters, many of whom were gay as hell. Didn't his mom try to hide Achilles by disguising him as a girl among the temple maidens before Troy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21257028/Discussion-Questions-on-Edith-Hamilton%E2%80%99s-Mythology-Directions-Answer-Each-Question

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 "Achilles’ mother had been told that if her son went to Troy, he would die. Therefore she
dressed Achilles in girl’s clothing and hid him among the maidens at the court of King
Lycomedes. Odysseus dressed as a peddler and went to find him. Odysseus hid some
weapons among the jewels he was peddling, and Achilles immediately gave himself away
by showing interest in the weapons. He was easily persuaded to accompany the Greeks to
Troy."

Also Achilles didn't mind wearing dresses. Sure, they try to say his mom was behind this but he never tried to run away. He liked it and she was accepting him.... He got along VERY well as bestest friends with the girls and despite being a boy he never tried to make any advances on any of the maidens, not a one. Gee it's almost like a gay fitting right in with the girls.... He's basically in the girl's locker room at an all girl's school and NOT A DAMN THING HAPPENS! GAAAAY! He just kept putting on his pretty clothes day after day.... It's been argued he was good at fighting because his competition was too focused on being "macho" and Achillies didn't care about that as much as he cared about where his sword was. Sure, he wanted fame and the only kind of fame in his day was from fighting....

Then there is the fact the Achilles was totally gay with Patroclus ("sanitized" in the western translations) and that's why he went apeshit murdering Hector, desecrated his body and basically went nuts. He wouldn't fight for Agamemnon for women, for money, for anything because he didn't like him and showed it by being catty, but once his boyfriend got killed, shit totally hit the fan and he started killing people left and right....

Let's see, wants fame/attention,Doesn't everyone? in drag Hey, to each his own., catty There are a rare breed of guys who aren't douchebags, y'know., and motivated to fight when his best friend/lover gets killed but not for money or women Patroclus was most likely in an ancient form of what we call today a "bromance"., doesn't ever try to get with a girl despite being more or less in the girl's locker room at the all girl school and being best friends with all those girls = not just gay, but GAAAAAAAY! Heroes of ancient nations tend to be celibate.

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

Shitty shitpost or are you serious? Interesting with how the bold text at the bottom was yours but meh. Crass denial does not a rebuttal make.... Also "Heroes tended to be celibate" huh? The hell are you talking about: that meant you got the girl! Dude did you read that book at all. Practically everyone in it had a wife or girlfriend, Odysseus, Hector, Agamemnon, Ajax (both of them), and tons of others all had wives or girlfriends or at least were talked about having sex with girls. Achilles is the only one in the whole damn book who actively turns down sex with a girl and is unattached.

Achilles absolutely dug the dudes....

So your mom wants to "hide you from the war...." Naturally, you need to be "a girl" in a girl's school instead of just hanging out in some other kingdom, especially since they had the resources to travel. Na, we don't need to go anywhere, just give me that dress. Also all those girls I'm constantly around and who would probably figure it out eventually, yeah not only are they all my bestest friends, but I don't think I want to do anything naughty with any of them evers....

No no, we don't need to hide me somewhere else as a boy, just give me that dress and let me wear one all the time.... "I'm not gay at alllllllllllllllllll, but how's my singing voice?"

Wow, does it just blow everyone's damn mind that one of the greatest warriors in history liked men, that this fact didn't detract one bit from his fighting capabilities and may have enhanced them? Doesn't this turn Don't ask; don't tell straight on its ear? Fuck bigotry....

Yes gay guys can be cool! Deal with it. Thinking the gay guy is cool doesn't mean jack about your own sexuality.

Yeah, they had different views of sexuality, but that doesn't mean there weren't some people who were only attracted to the opposite sex and some who were only attracted to the same sex. Further bi people still existed back then. It doesn't matter how you label it, the preference is still there....

Achilles had every chance to shack up with tons of women and he didn't take any of those chances. Odysseus, Hector, Agamemnon, Ajax (both of them), and tons of others all had wives or girlfriends or at least were talked about having sex with girls. Gee, of all the main characters only Achilles wasn't? Combined with his past history of turning down every chance for sex with a woman, I'm seeing a pretty good case for gay.

Well, concerning the case of Achilles, there was still the deal with Briseis, to whom he occasionally refers exceptionally fondly (to the point where wikipedia claims he's referring to the relation as equal to that of a man and his wife). Besides, Briseis was practically kicking and screaming when she was dragged to Agamemnon's tent, so it was probably mutual (at least Ovid interpreted it that way). It's still possible he spent his time with his comrades, but I don't recall any mention in the Illiad pointing at that. Later authors do however speculate that he may also have had a sexual relation with Patroclus, which would make him bisexual as well as polygamous. How's that for a role model

[Truean]

Well, concerning the case of Achilles, there was still the deal with Briseis, to whom he occasionally refers exceptionally fondly (to the point where wikipedia claims he's referring to the relation as equal to that of a man and his wife). Besides, Briseis was practically kicking and screaming when she was dragged to Agamemnon's tent, so it was probably mutual (at least Ovid interpreted it that way). It's still possible he spent his time with his comrades, but I don't recall any mention in the Illiad pointing at that. Later authors do however speculate that he may also have had a sexual relation with Patroclus, which would make him bisexual as well as polygamous. How's that for a role model

Meh, Ovid.... Homer or bust.

Briseis
I totally knew someone would bring up Briseis and was ready for it. It never said he actually did anything sexual with her, which is odd given that they absolutely talked about the other guys doing things with their wives and used the word for sex in the original Greek.

Briseis was practically kicking and screaming when she was dragged to Agamemnon's tent

Because Agamemnon didn't care about her, wanted to rape her/enslave her, and do every horrible thing to her for the express purpose of pissing off Achilles and show he was "better than him." "I'm the big king, you're not. Nothing you have can't be taken by me.... Know your place and fight under me and my orders only." This lead directly to Achilles refusing to fight. I'd kick and scream too. This goes to poor Briseis being justifiably scared shitless and doesn't necessarily reflect on any romantic relation to Achilles.

Agamemnon wanted to take something away from Achilles to assert his dominance as king over the man. He thought he saw some connection to this woman and latched on to try and inflict pain through her capture and possibly use her as a hostage. Plan... backfired....

In fact that argument can be used to say Achilles DIDN'T have a relationship with her. If he really loved her or lusted after her, he'd have risked more to get her back instead of just leaving her and refusing to fight. This arguably endangered her more. Contrast this to Achilles going murderously nuts over Patroclus.

To review: Girl gets taken, pride wounded, decided not to fight. Lover gets taken, kill 'em all.... He killed Hector, royalty, over Patroclus despite Hector's huge army that matched the Greeks well. Why didn't  he go after Agamemnon, also Royalty with a big army. It just doesn't add up if he loved her.
(and don't say she's still alive and Patroclus was dead and that accounts for the difference in reaction. I'd argue a life of rape slavery is worse than death. So by that logic he should've been MORE pissed about her situation if he loved/lusted after her.)

How's that for a role model

Actually yeah, this is a topic for most lit classes. Lots of people try to say Hector was the Hero, because he was a family man and tried to do the best he could. One could even say he came close to being honorable at times. Except no, Achilles was the role model, for the "Ancient Greek Heroic Code System of Honor."

The Iliad is about Troy the place and Achilles the guy. Its first lines read (depending on the translation)

"Rage--Goddes, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles...."

He was their role model 3000 years ago, though perhaps not ours....

[Virex]

Well, concerning the case of Achilles, there was still the deal with Briseis, to whom he occasionally refers exceptionally fondly (to the point where wikipedia claims he's referring to the relation as equal to that of a man and his wife). Besides, Briseis was practically kicking and screaming when she was dragged to Agamemnon's tent, so it was probably mutual (at least Ovid interpreted it that way). It's still possible he spent his time with his comrades, but I don't recall any mention in the Illiad pointing at that. Later authors do however speculate that he may also have had a sexual relation with Patroclus, which would make him bisexual as well as polygamous. How's that for a role model

Meh, Ovid.... Homer or bust.

Briseis
I totally knew someone would bring up Briseis and was ready for it. It never said he actually did anything sexual with her, which is odd given that they absolutely talked about the other guys doing things with their wives and used the word for sex in the original Greek.

Briseis was practically kicking and screaming when she was dragged to Agamemnon's tent

Because Agamemnon didn't care about her, wanted to rape her/enslave her, and do every horrible thing to her for the express purpose of pissing off Achilles and show he was "better than him." "I'm the king, you're not. Nothing you have can't be taken by me.... Know your place and fight under me and my orders only." This lead directly to Achilles refusing to fight. I'd kick and scream too. This goes to poor Briseis being justifiably scared shitless and doesn't necessarily reflect on any relation to Achilles.

Agamemnon wanted to take something away from Achilles to assert his dominance as king over the man. He thought he saw some connection to this woman and latched on to try and inflict pain through her capture and possibly use her as a hostage. Plan... backfired....

In fact that argument can be used to say Achilles DIDN'T have a relationship with her. If he really loved her or lusted after her, he'd have risked more to get her back instead of just leaving her and refusing to fight. This arguably endangered her more. Contrast this to Achilles going murderously nuts over Patroclus.

To review: Girl gets taken, pride wounded, decided not to fight. Lover gets taken, kill 'em all....

How's that for a role model

Actually yeah, this is a topic for most lit classes. Lots of people try to say Hector was the Hero, because he was a family man and tried to do the best he could. One could even say he came close to being honorable at times. Except no, Achilles was the role model, for the "Ancient Greek Heroic Code System of Honor."

The Iliad is about Troy the place and Achilles the guy. Its first lines read (depending on the translation)

"Rage--Goddes, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles...."

He was their role model 3000 years ago, though perhaps not ours....

I think the Illiad does state that Achilles would love nothing more then to pound Agamemnon's face in, but Palas Athena prevents him from doing so, so he choses the next best thing: Let him rot. He knew there was no way to get her back without the explicit consent of Agamemnon. The case of him dragging Hector behind his cart, well that's what would have happened to Agamemnon had Athena not intervened, but you can probably imagine the result for him and Briseis (as she was formally part of the loot he had received)
Come to think of it, I can't quite recall any mention of Achilles getting overly intimate with anyone in the Illiad, which is strange, because others certainly do get it on as you say. To further drive the point home, Agamemnon explicitly mentions never having laid a hand on Briseis. I'm getting the feeling that Homer explicitly wanted Achilles to be extra special or something. This could play into the ancient greek ideal, where rage was somewhat acceptable, but blind lust (both for sex and gold) usually leads to nothing but trouble and grief.

[Detonate]

The Catholic Church's Chief of Child Protection, Christopher Jarvis, has been caught with over 4,000 images of child pornography and arrested. He has admitted to 12 counts of creating, possessing, and distributing said images.

Can you find another source for this? I've never heard of this site before, and I can't find it anywhere else.

[Truean]

Agamemnon's consent to go home:
Doesn't factor into it dude. Achilles had a choice: stay in Greece and live a long life but be forgotten or go to Troy to certainly die but be remembered forever. He made his choice. He was never considering going back.... He knew he was going to die there. He also was NOT about getting approval from that guy. He was all about his own rights which he didn't think came from some king.

Divine Intervention: ala Athena
Eh, the metaphysical is harder to argue. Yeah by the literal text but it's all some sort of metaphor. Achilles was also stopped by a river he "fought." Yeah, who the crap knows what this really means?

Agamemnon explicitly mentions never having laid a hand on Briseis
And again, no one knows expressly why. Maybe he was hoping to use that as a bargaining chip. Maybe he was scared that would push Achilles over the edge and his sword into his throat? Who knows. Dude didn't care about anyone else's rights. He was a monster.

I'm getting the feeling that Homer explicitly wanted Achilles to be celibate or something.
Meh, we really can't know this one either. I'd argue no because of that "Ancient Greek Heroic Code" thingy, but again all we can do is speculate on this one. I think it is possible that the originals might have actually once mentioned Achilles being gay but Translations (largely done by Christian Church Scholars) removed it through editing. It just doesn't add up. Every other Hero under the Code got sexy with just about everything. Case in point, Odysseus. I just don't think the "Code" would choose a celibate person for its poster boy. Meh, who knows.

Edit: Ahhh, Edit Ninja'd while edit ninjaing

[Nadaka]

The mirror is a UK "tabloid", notable for being the other paper accused of phone hacking, and a place where Piers Morgan worked before he worked at the other UK tabloid that was accused of phone hacking.

[Vector]

Right.  I'm going to have to ask that the link to the tabloid be removed, then, until we can actually verify the story.  Better not to spread disinformation if at all possible.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The Catholic Church's Chief of Child Protection, Christopher Jarvis, has been caught with over 4,000 images of child pornography and arrested. He has admitted to 12 counts of creating, possessing, and distributing said images.

Can you find another source for this? I've never heard of this site before, and I can't find it anywhere else.

Right.  I'm going to have to ask that the link to the tabloid be removed, then, until we can actually verify the story.  Better not to spread disinformation if at all possible.

No need, I have found the article where mirror apparently got the story from.
The Herald's (A Plymouth newspaper) official website. As this took place in Plymouth, this should be more credible.

EDIT: Changed the original link to the better source, though.

[Vector]

Oh, good!  Thank you.

[Leafsnail]

The Mirror isn't as bad as the Daily Mail in terms of making things up.  I mean, they usually have the facts, even if they obtained said facts from other people's answerphones.