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[Lysabild]

Is ggamer really serious? All I see him do is troll. Atleast I hope it's trolling.

[kaijyuu]

Wasn't middle aged guys paying young boys for sex pretty damn common back in ancient greece?

My understanding is it was just what they did. Like going out to a movie or something.

[MonkeyHead]

I was also of the understanding that pedorasty was the norm in those days, and also that soldiers were encouraged to take each other as lovers, in order for them to fight harder to help those they loved...

[ChairmanPoo]

that being said, Homer does not go out of his way to say that Achilles was gay, or that he had something going with his cousin....

also that soldiers were encouraged to take each other as lovers

I think that was just the Sacred Band of Thebes.

[Kay12]

Got to agree with G-Flex. Seriously, even Western cultures have different views on sexuality. For example, we tall and handsome Finns tend to find nudity in itself less sexual than many other Western cultures. My foreign friends see a group of middle-aged men in a hot and moist room as awkward, even though they know that sauna is just a relaxed social event where you happen to be naked. They can't understand non-sexual nudity the way we do, because their culture doesn't de-sensitize them to it like ours.

Not to generalize people though, everyone's got their own views on sexuality.

Wasn't middle aged guys paying young boys for sex pretty damn common back in ancient greece?

My understanding is it was just what they did. Like going out to a movie or something.

Pederasty was common. It involved no pre-pubescent children, and was typically more than just sex. The older man was in many cases like a mentor to the younger one - teacher and caretaker. Of course, some were in for just the sex.

[Vector]

I'll also add that it generally only involved intercrural sex, as penetrative sex was considered demeaning to the penetrated.

It was fine to perform with women, though, because women were pretty much on an equal standing with slaves in the society.

Would the book itself have been different were it written by someone with Aspergers (ignoring for the moment that someone with aspergers would probably have written a different book)?

There's a book, considered roughly equivalent in topic and scope, called Born on a Blue Day.  It was written by an autistic person.  It is a very different book.

It is also somewhat unpopular and often compared negatively to Curious Incident.  Curious Incident is a book about what a man who never researched autism or spoke to an autistic person about the condition thought being autistic might be like.  As he wrote on his webpage, "imagination trumps research."

I frankly found it very offensive in its assumptions and errors... and yes, I really do think the book would have been different as written by someone who actually had Asperger's Syndrome.

Is this one of those, since other people are doing bad things it is a good thing for me to do them things? Or is it just a misdirection so you don't answer the question.

I don't think it's such a big leap to think that black people have a better idea what being black is like than white people do, or that transgendered authors have a better idea of what being trans is like.  Or that lesbian authors, should they happen to write a sex scene between women, would have a better idea of the mechanics thereof.

Maybe that's just me, though.


Also, the APA now fully and unanimously supports gay marriage.

[ggamer]

Is ggamer really serious? All I see him do is troll. Atleast I hope it's trolling.

At this point, when I see people say this I wonder if they are trolling.

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

Trying to impose modern Western notions of sexual orientation on people who were 1) living centuries or millennia-ago in a very different culture, and 2) fictional, is an exercise in futility. Sorry, but the ancient Greeks just didn't see sexuality the way people in the 21st-century Anglophone world do. Asking whether someone from that time and place was "gay" or "straight" is just plain silly, and odds are neither answer is a good fit.

Good point.

[G-Flex]

I don't think it's such a big leap to think that black people have a better idea what being black is like than white people do, or that transgendered authors have a better idea of what being trans is like.  Or that lesbian authors, should they happen to write a sex scene between women, would have a better idea of the mechanics thereof.

Maybe that's just me, though.

That's fair, but there are a few things to be said about assumptions here. A lesbian can still be naive about sex, a black person can still be regressive or even entitled in their own way, and a white person might still have valid ideas about race relations. Judge the ideas based on the ideas, not based on who they came from.

[Vector]

Yes, I imagine a gifted author could accurately portray other experiences--and you're right, I shouldn't make that assumption.

However, I really find it insulting when someone provides an accurate portrayal, someone else provides a stereotype, and the latter is lauded for their touching and sensitive writing, so true, gives a look into the XXXXXXX mind, whatever.  It just seems unfair.

[Virex]

Would the book itself have been different were it written by someone with Aspergers (ignoring for the moment that someone with aspergers would probably have written a different book)?

There's a book, considered roughly equivalent in topic and scope, called Born on a Blue Day.  It was written by an autistic person.  It is a very different book.

It is also somewhat unpopular and often compared negatively to Curious Incident.  Curious Incident is a book about what a man who never researched autism or spoke to an autistic person about the condition thought being autistic might be like.  As he wrote on his webpage, "imagination trumps research."

That, however, is a different book. I'll concede that the experiences of an author will influence how she writes books, but that was not the point I was getting at. What I meant and what you addressed in the lines succeeding the quote, is that in my opinion the personal situation of an author is largely, if not entirely, irrelevant to the merits of the book itself. I would not have viewed "Max Havelaar" any different were it written by an Indonesian instead of a Dutchman, assuming the book itself did not change. I might have thought that the writer could have done a better job (or I might not, it's damn long since I read that book), but again that doesn't alter the book itself. Or am I adding disctinctions here that should not be?[/quote]

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Alright, time for some news:

The Good

American Psychological Association supports same-sex marriage.

US Appeals Court rules 2-1 that the board of commissioners in Foursyth County, North Carolina, violated the Establishment Clause by starting it's meetings with prayers.

The Bad

Bishop of Ballarat states that a parliamentary investigation into the suicides of children who were raped by catholic priest Robert Best is unnecessary, refuses to meet the rape victims of his colleague. Said bishop was the principal of a school at the same time serial pedophile Gerald Ridsdale was School Chaplin. 26 suicides have been linked to this case.

The Catholic Church's Chief of Child Protection, Christopher Jarvis, has been caught with over 4,000 images of child pornography and arrested. He has admitted to 12 counts of creating, possessing, and distributing said images.

The Oh What The Fuck

The WBC is planning to picket the funerals of people who died in the Oslo massacre. That's a direct link to the WBC's document on the matter, so don't look at it if you don't want to see WBC insanity.

[Levi]

The Catholic Church's Chief of Child Protection, Christopher Jarvis, has been caught with over 4,000 images of child pornography and arrested. He has admitted to 12 counts of creating, possessing, and distributing said images.

Lol.  With how often these priests are getting caught I'm starting to wonder if there is anybody in the clergy who isn't a pedophile.

[Bauglir]

Haven't clicked it yet, but I'm considering hosting that WBC pdf elsewhere just so that they don't get the traffic. Worth it to bother?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Haven't clicked it yet, but I'm considering hosting that WBC pdf elsewhere just so that they don't get the traffic. Worth it to bother?

Not really. Them getting traffic is meaningless.

[Truean]

Careful with GG. Dude could possibly be trollin' given that he may well have been the straw that got the thread locked last time on P 168.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

welcome to the thread, glad you could join.

_{crafty escape!}

What's this?  I have an excuse to report someone for my own sanity and instead I'm just locking the thread?  How generous, Vector!  You even got out the lacy tablecloths and garlic tea for the special occasion!

And the tea cakes with cumin and bacon, Mr. Fillobith!  And the tea cakes with suet and anise.  Now let's all quietly, quietly go down this rabbit hole so we can meet Miss Vector and all her hats for the party.

I've already discussed that with vector, and i am actually here for real conversation.

I haven't been on the computer since two days ago, I think, camp and what not.

Ancient Greece had all kinds of characters, many of whom were gay as hell. Didn't his mom try to hide Achilles by disguising him as a girl among the temple maidens before Troy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21257028/Discussion-Questions-on-Edith-Hamilton%E2%80%99s-Mythology-Directions-Answer-Each-Question

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 "Achilles’ mother had been told that if her son went to Troy, he would die. Therefore she
dressed Achilles in girl’s clothing and hid him among the maidens at the court of King
Lycomedes. Odysseus dressed as a peddler and went to find him. Odysseus hid some
weapons among the jewels he was peddling, and Achilles immediately gave himself away
by showing interest in the weapons. He was easily persuaded to accompany the Greeks to
Troy."

Also Achilles didn't mind wearing dresses. Sure, they try to say his mom was behind this but he never tried to run away. He liked it and she was accepting him.... He got along VERY well as bestest friends with the girls and despite being a boy he never tried to make any advances on any of the maidens, not a one. Gee it's almost like a gay fitting right in with the girls.... He's basically in the girl's locker room at an all girl's school and NOT A DAMN THING HAPPENS! GAAAAY! He just kept putting on his pretty clothes day after day.... It's been argued he was good at fighting because his competition was too focused on being "macho" and Achillies didn't care about that as much as he cared about where his sword was. Sure, he wanted fame and the only kind of fame in his day was from fighting....

Then there is the fact the Achilles was totally gay with Patroclus ("sanitized" in the western translations) and that's why he went apeshit murdering Hector, desecrated his body and basically went nuts. He wouldn't fight for Agamemnon for women, for money, for anything because he didn't like him and showed it by being catty, but once his boyfriend got killed, shit totally hit the fan and he started killing people left and right....

Let's see, wants fame/attention,Doesn't everyone? in drag Hey, to each his own., catty There are a rare breed of guys who aren't douchebags, y'know., and motivated to fight when his best friend/lover gets killed but not for money or women Patroclus was most likely in an ancient form of what we call today a "bromance"., doesn't ever try to get with a girl despite being more or less in the girl's locker room at the all girl school and being best friends with all those girls = not just gay, but GAAAAAAAY! Heroes of ancient nations tend to be celibate.

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

Shitty shitpost or are you serious? Interesting with how the bold text at the bottom was yours but meh. Crass denial does not a rebuttal make.... Also "Heroes tended to be celibate" huh? The hell are you talking about: that meant you got the girl! Dude did you read that book at all. Practically everyone in it had a wife or girlfriend, Odysseus, Hector, Agamemnon, Ajax (both of them), and tons of others all had wives or girlfriends or at least were talked about having sex with girls. Achilles is the only one in the whole damn book who actively turns down sex with a girl and is unattached.

Achilles absolutely dug the dudes....

So your mom wants to "hide you from the war...." Naturally, you need to be "a girl" in a girl's school instead of just hanging out in some other kingdom, especially since they had the resources to travel. Na, we don't need to go anywhere, just give me that dress. Also all those girls I'm constantly around and who would probably figure it out eventually, yeah not only are they all my bestest friends, but I don't think I want to do anything naughty with any of them evers....

No no, we don't need to hide me somewhere else as a boy, just give me that dress and let me wear one all the time.... "I'm not gay at alllllllllllllllllll, but how's my singing voice?"

Wow, does it just blow everyone's damn mind that one of the greatest warriors in history liked men, that this fact didn't detract one bit from his fighting capabilities and may have enhanced them? Doesn't this turn Don't ask; don't tell straight on its ear? Fuck bigotry....

Yes gay guys can be cool! Deal with it. Thinking the gay guy is cool doesn't mean jack about your own sexuality.

Achilles had every chance to shack up with tons of women and he didn't take any of those chances. Odysseus, Hector, Agamemnon, Ajax (both of them), and tons of others all had wives or girlfriends or at least were talked about having sex with girls. Gee, of all the main characters only Achilles wasn't? Combined with his past history of turning down every chance for sex with a woman, I'm seeing a pretty good case for gay.

Gay people can totally fight: http://news.yahoo.com/military-members-march-san-diego-gay-pride-000617150.html

Is ggamer really serious? All I see him do is troll. Atleast I hope it's trolling.

At this point, when I see people say this I wonder if they are trolling.

Except you know they probably aren't....

I'll also add that it generally only involved intercrural sex, as penetrative sex was considered demeaning to the penetrated.

It was fine to perform with women, though, because women were pretty much on an equal standing with slaves in the society.

I admit I'm somewhat fuzzy on this. I thought it varied depending on what culture and in Greece what region of Greece you came from. I remember hearing something about Dionysian Temple dominated areas being cooler and not subscribing to this. It's been a while since I've studied ancient Greece though and this was one of the side details in the literature I remember. I might be wrong.

Sad to say this is still the way a lot of people think and why a feminine gay guy is sometimes called a "bitch." [headdesk] Yeah, this kinda sucks if you understand kinda to mean majorly... I have been called this before in this context.... I hate it.

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

Trying to impose modern Western notions of sexual orientation on people who were 1) living centuries or millennia-ago in a very different culture, and 2) fictional, is an exercise in futility. Sorry, but the ancient Greeks just didn't see sexuality the way people in the 21st-century Anglophone world do. Asking whether someone from that time and place was "gay" or "straight" is just plain silly, and odds are neither answer is a good fit.


EDIT: To be honest, I'm a little concerned at Truean's surprising conflation of non-normative gender-related behavior (a boy wearing woman's clothes, hanging out with women a lot, etc.) with homosexuality.

Eh, actually I realize that somehow "most cross dressers are actually straight." This somehow seems to ignore drag queens and the whole great big thing that goes along with that but meh.... The point is, he was totally in the girl's locker room at the girl's school and never tried anything, ever. He turned down every chance he had at sex with a girl. Maybe it's not conclusive but the totality of the circumstances doesn't point to straight and this little fact doesn't point to straight....

Yeah, they had different views of sexuality, but that doesn't mean there weren't some people who were only attracted to the opposite sex and some who were only attracted to the same sex. Further bi people still existed back then. It doesn't matter how you label it, the preference is still there....

I completely, absolutely don't buy this theory personally by the way of "sexuality was different back then, because it has been used as an anti gay tool forever. It's not hard to see once you make the connection. "If sexuality was different back then, then sexuality can be different in the future and we can just make sexuality different to make there be no gays!" You can call it whatever you want, there absolutely were gays back then. Cultural practices differed, labels differed but some guys liked guys and some girls liked girls.... All that changed was the way you expressed it.

Oh, come on.... Sure it's been 3,000 years and we can't know for sure, but it's a pretty rational argument overall.