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[Siquo]

Oh, and every male having muscles-beyond-measure, and everyone being macho is realistic? Marvel isn't really known for anatomic averages, and girls aren't the only ones with improbable role-models. If anything, in my recollection the women even get the juicier story arcs, with more in-depth character building, even though they are often not the protagonist.

I despise manga with a vengeance, Utena is not going to cover it.

[Truean]

Seriously, we JUST NOW got a black Disney Princess....

Now we wait for a M2F trans Disney princess?

That one is actually a serious question to Truean, by the by. Where does "accurate representation of the entire populace" end, and would you argue that a M2F princess should be included? And/or that two princesses actually marry each other and live happily ever after?

I've got a princess-addict at home, btw, and would not mind if they did and she was exposed to that, but am more wary of how much you can force companies to be PC.


Come to think of it, I'd welcome a trans princess. As long as she's a bit androgynous and pretty, don't want it to set a negative stereotype. It'd blur the whole gender thing and confuse the shit out of my toddler, who is now in some kind of hyper-polarisation phase, where she's aware of gender and very different in approach to boys and men versus girls and women, but I just like confusing people I guess.

We almost do have one now: Mulan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulan Except she goes from a girl to a boy and back again.

Sure, why the hell not? This boils down to including certain types of people in stories and trans don't have any widespread ones in modern times really. GLBT don't really either for the most part.

Ancient Greece had all kinds of characters, many of whom were gay as hell. Didn't his mom try to hide Achilles by disguising him as a girl among the temple maidens before Troy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21257028/Discussion-Questions-on-Edith-Hamilton%E2%80%99s-Mythology-Directions-Answer-Each-Question

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 "Achilles’ mother had been told that if her son went to Troy, he would die. Therefore she
dressed Achilles in girl’s clothing and hid him among the maidens at the court of King
Lycomedes. Odysseus dressed as a peddler and went to find him. Odysseus hid some
weapons among the jewels he was peddling, and Achilles immediately gave himself away
by showing interest in the weapons. He was easily persuaded to accompany the Greeks to
Troy."

Also Achilles didn't mind wearing dresses. Sure, they try to say his mom was behind this but he never tried to run away. He liked it and she was accepting him.... He got along VERY well as bestest friends with the girls and despite being a boy he never tried to make any advances on any of the maidens, not a one. Gee it's almost like a gay fitting right in with the girls.... He's basically in the girl's locker room at an all girl's school and NOT A DAMN THING HAPPENS! GAAAAY! He just kept putting on his pretty clothes day after day.... It's been argued he was good at fighting because his competition was too focused on being "macho" and Achillies didn't care about that as much as he cared about where his sword was. Sure, he wanted fame and the only kind of fame in his day was from fighting....

Then there is the fact the Achilles was totally gay with Patroclus ("sanitized" in the western translations) and that's why he went apeshit murdering Hector, desecrated his body and basically went nuts. He wouldn't fight for Agamemnon for women, for money, for anything because he didn't like him and showed it by being catty, but once his boyfriend got killed, shit totally hit the fan and he started killing people left and right....

Let's see, wants fame/attention, in drag, catty, and motivated to fight when his best friend/lover gets killed but not for money or women, doesn't ever try to get with a girl despite being more or less in the girl's locker room at the all girl school and being best friends with all those girls = not just gay, but GAAAAAAAY!

You don't even want me to touch Alexander the Great....

The point, you can totally have gay heroes in literature. Greece did it and it didn't hurt them one bit. I imagine you could have a transperson as well if people would kindly take the stick out of their ass. Disney characters get turned into all sorts of things, the little mermaid grew legs, etc etc, it's almost easier to come up with an example that nothing magical happens. Furthermore, directly on Point: Mulan happened and the world didn't explode. Is it really so hard to imagine the same thing happening with a switch in that world?

I just don't know. Kids need someone to admire and look up to. That's sort of the real deal behind the whole "hero" stitck. Its a method for teaching kids values. Spiderman was "with great power comes great responsibility." I think we need heroes who also happen to be girls

Considering the likes of Catwoman and the X-men chicks (I refuse to call them women until their bodies are brought back in proportion), I don't think that's such a great idea.

Adds: realistically written and portrayed women heroes with good writing.... For this you have to actually think, which most writers today are far too lazy to do, and explore beyond, "Herp Derp, is really strong or has cool powers, yaaaaaaaay!" [sigh]

It isn't hard to do. Check out my sig, I'm doing it from the hip in my spare time.... I give you Capt. Irua, who has a main role and far more parts coming up.... And that's just the damn prologue.

[Vector]

I think we need heroes who are straight, cis-gendered, able-bodied, conventionally attractive white dudes.

What, not going to start naming specific titles?

This is the point, and this is the problem.

... For a super-hero story with actual female heroes, I recommend Powers.

Have you read Runaways?

Not yet, but I can see that I need to work on that =)

I despise manga with a vengeance, Utena is not going to cover it.

Sorry, best I can do.  I'm sitting here rattling off stories from my childhood.

But wait... wait!

Ozma of Oz is trans.  That's right.  The princess from The Wizard of Oz.  She's also the first person I ever dressed up as for Halloween.

She might also be a lesbian... dunno on that front.

[Truean]

I haven't read for entertainment in quite some time actually.... [sigh].

[appreciatively hugs Vector....] You're rather close to getting an incredibly loyal gay/trans BFF....

[Siquo]

Come to think of it (and with the examples, thanks for those, although I do not know Mulan (never seen it at least) (and we have a SHITload of Disney movies)), cross-dressing is pretty normal in a kid's life. Also, when dressed, you are that person. So a man dressed up as a lady is a lady. I even once saw that a (female) teacher dressed up as our version of Santa, in front of the kids, and everyone believed it really was Santa from then on.

I cross-dressed as a kid, it's just play, and my girl wants to marry both me and her mother. But when an ungendered Tinky Winky wears a purse the world is damned and the end is nigh...

And Oh hey look, my favourite trans author writes (well, wrote, it's kinda discontinued) superhero stuff as well! (yeah I'm plugging, sue me)

[Virex]

And Oh hey look, my favourite trans author writes (well, wrote, it's kinda discontinued) superhero stuff as well! (yeah I'm plugging, sue me)

Careful with that expression when Truean is around
Also, why would you want to keep tabs on the sexual preferences of a writer? It's not like that's going to change her books or anything?

[Vector]

It isn't?

Funny, please tell that to all the dudes who are convinced that women can't write and all the folks who won't take on film projects directed by women.

For example, take The Mysterious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time.  Not written by an autistic person.  It showed.  He simply didn't have that experience.

[Virex]

Yeah I know we men keep fucking things up all the time, do you think I like being born as an oppressive, insensitive rapist? (edit: No that's not Poe's law in case you're wondering, I really hate my own gender) (yeah, I know, I shouldn't generalize and all that, but then how come if there's oppression somewhere it's always straight white men that are the main instigator?)

For example, take The Mysterious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time.  Not written by an autistic person.  It showed.  He simply didn't have that experience.

Would the book itself have been different were it written by someone with Aspergers (ignoring for the moment that someone with aspergers would probably have written a different book)?

[Truean]

It isn't?

Funny, please tell that to all the dudes who are convinced that women can't write and all the folks who won't take on film projects directed by women.

For example, take The Mysterious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time.  Not written by an autistic person.  It showed.  He simply didn't have that experience.

I keep telling them, but they start going off about some sexist shit I'd have to pay attention to in order to remember. Meh, I like to imagine I count as a woman and I certainly know how to write.

Come to think of it (and with the examples, thanks for those, although I do not know Mulan (never seen it at least) (and we have a SHITload of Disney movies)), cross-dressing is pretty normal in a kid's life. Also, when dressed, you are that person. So a man dressed up as a lady is a lady. I even once saw that a (female) teacher dressed up as our version of Santa, in front of the kids, and everyone believed it really was Santa from then on.

I cross-dressed as a kid, it's just play, and my girl wants to marry both me and her mother. But when an ungendered Tinky Winky wears a purse the world is damned and the end is nigh...

And Oh hey look, my favourite trans author writes (well, wrote, it's kinda discontinued) superhero stuff as well! (yeah I'm plugging, sue me)

You have no idea how much I wanted to be a girl as a little kid. I cut the end off a pillow case and made myself a little makeshift skirt to wear as I slept at night..... My mom actually caught me in it but didn't put the pieces together. She thought I was cold and needed more blankets on my bed.... [crickets].

That's not awkward; that's not awkward at all....

[Siquo]

Aww...

If anything, I'm afraid my girl is turning out too girly. And even if she does... well, it's hard not to have expectations of your child, especially if you've been raised with a lot of them. I never asked to be the golden child, and refused to be, and fucked up a (maybe) brighter future because I rebelled against it.

It's hard to let your child go, and set him or her free, don't blame your parents too much. They just did what they thought was right at the time (This is for more people than just Truean, btw).

Careful with that expression when Truean is around
Also, why would you want to keep tabs on the sexual preferences of a writer? It's not like that's going to change her books or anything?

I mentioned her before when the discussion was actually about trans authors, and I had one to share, and now again. Also, I'm not careful when they're not. "Trans" is still acceptable, isn't it? Although it could mean both -sexual and -vestite, which are certainly different...

Fake-Edit: Ok I deleted some thoughts here because I clearly drank a bit and dont' want to be misunderstood again

[Criptfeind]

It isn't?

Funny, please tell that to all the dudes who are convinced that women can't write and all the folks who won't take on film projects directed by women.

Is this one of those, since other people are doing bad things it is a good thing for me to do them things? Or is it just a misdirection so you don't answer the question.

[Nadaka]

On transgendered superheroes...

I recall reading about one that was produced in either Argentina or Brazil, but I don't recall the name or details. IIRC the hero/heroine was some kind of mutant vampire who depended on a chemical that could only be harvested from other mutants (who had a tendency to go berserk). I don't know if that is enough info to find it, but I'll do some googling to see if I can find a source.

[ggamer]

Careful with GG. Dude could possibly be trollin' given that he may well have been the straw that got the thread locked last time on P 168.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

welcome to the thread, glad you could join.

_{crafty escape!}

What's this?  I have an excuse to report someone for my own sanity and instead I'm just locking the thread?  How generous, Vector!  You even got out the lacy tablecloths and garlic tea for the special occasion!

And the tea cakes with cumin and bacon, Mr. Fillobith!  And the tea cakes with suet and anise.  Now let's all quietly, quietly go down this rabbit hole so we can meet Miss Vector and all her hats for the party.

I've already discussed that with vector, and i am actually here for real conversation.

I haven't been on the computer since two days ago, I think, camp and what not.

Ancient Greece had all kinds of characters, many of whom were gay as hell. Didn't his mom try to hide Achilles by disguising him as a girl among the temple maidens before Troy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21257028/Discussion-Questions-on-Edith-Hamilton%E2%80%99s-Mythology-Directions-Answer-Each-Question

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 "Achilles’ mother had been told that if her son went to Troy, he would die. Therefore she
dressed Achilles in girl’s clothing and hid him among the maidens at the court of King
Lycomedes. Odysseus dressed as a peddler and went to find him. Odysseus hid some
weapons among the jewels he was peddling, and Achilles immediately gave himself away
by showing interest in the weapons. He was easily persuaded to accompany the Greeks to
Troy."

Also Achilles didn't mind wearing dresses. Sure, they try to say his mom was behind this but he never tried to run away. He liked it and she was accepting him.... He got along VERY well as bestest friends with the girls and despite being a boy he never tried to make any advances on any of the maidens, not a one. Gee it's almost like a gay fitting right in with the girls.... He's basically in the girl's locker room at an all girl's school and NOT A DAMN THING HAPPENS! GAAAAY! He just kept putting on his pretty clothes day after day.... It's been argued he was good at fighting because his competition was too focused on being "macho" and Achillies didn't care about that as much as he cared about where his sword was. Sure, he wanted fame and the only kind of fame in his day was from fighting....

Then there is the fact the Achilles was totally gay with Patroclus ("sanitized" in the western translations) and that's why he went apeshit murdering Hector, desecrated his body and basically went nuts. He wouldn't fight for Agamemnon for women, for money, for anything because he didn't like him and showed it by being catty, but once his boyfriend got killed, shit totally hit the fan and he started killing people left and right....

Let's see, wants fame/attention,Doesn't everyone? in drag Hey, to each his own., catty There are a rare breed of guys who aren't douchebags, y'know., and motivated to fight when his best friend/lover gets killed but not for money or women Patroclus was most likely in an ancient form of what we call today a "bromance"., doesn't ever try to get with a girl despite being more or less in the girl's locker room at the all girl school and being best friends with all those girls = not just gay, but GAAAAAAAY! Heroes of ancient nations tend to be celibate.

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

[Siquo]

Case in point.

[G-Flex]

I still accept your point, but Achilles was not gay at all. Sure, bro had some weird shit going on there, but still.

Trying to impose modern Western notions of sexual orientation on people who were 1) living centuries or millennia-ago in a very different culture, and 2) fictional, is an exercise in futility. Sorry, but the ancient Greeks just didn't see sexuality the way people in the 21st-century Anglophone world do. Asking whether someone from that time and place was "gay" or "straight" is just plain silly, and odds are neither answer is a good fit.


EDIT: To be honest, I'm a little concerned at Truean's surprising conflation of non-normative gender-related behavior (a boy wearing woman's clothes, hanging out with women a lot, etc.) with homosexuality.